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Carbines in pistol calibers is a good idea, but I think the person would be sacrificing too much in terms of not enough penetration/knock down power and the inability to stretch the shot if need be. Hypothetically a situation, especially for most of us in NJ, would be in relatively small confines. And even in an open space, it would be unwise to use any type of firearm (best to move away from the fight then to be a part of it), in fear of raising the chances of collateral. Hypothetically, I think the max eff range of a carbine in pistol calibers would be fine. But going back to what was said before, to include talk of .223 vs. .308, the operator would lose a lot of knockdown power. Then of course, my experience with long guns in pistol calibers is limited.

I'm a fan of the .308, but I think where it fails is its weight (without magazines). I think the data showed that for one pound of .223, it would include around 37 rounds, while .308 would only be 19. 100 rounds of .223 would equal to around 2.7lbs, whereas 100 rounds of .308 is around 5.2lbs. In terms of ballistics, though I'm no subject matter expert, .308 is superior... but in the SHTF scenarios, there would be an array of variables. Regardless, its user preference right?

I think the point regarding stereotypes is that they are social labels created from social interaction-- meaning its user controlled versus system controlled. Because of this notion, stereotypes are illegitimate/digressive when making conscience decisions.

Ha, this should be under Ray's awesome thread of awesomeness. As for .223, I'm not sure of its exact ballistics. 5.56, and the M16/M4 family's maximum effective point range is 500M-- max effective area range is 600M. The max effective point range of the M16 is 550M, area range is 800M. And yes, Army boards ftw! Most engagements happen under 150-200M for the military (with exception of DM's) because there are usually bigger booms to handle it if its any further. Since we're talking about a SHTF situation, the name of the game is deterrence and not contact. And because of this, if the zombies or whatnot are further then spitting distance, might as well just avoid them instead. As for the weight, definitely man. There's actually a great thread on zombiehunters.org: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=57550 People were seeing how many rounds were in one pound for a wide array of rounds. What I would be interested in is possibly the 5.45 considering its light weight and comparable knock down power. As for me? I'll stick with my .223/5.56.

Dang, get some!

I don't see why this wouldn't be GTG. AR tools are great to have around, even if breaking them completely down isn't your prerogative (never know when you'll need them). ETA: Just checked out the actual products, and while having a multi-tool would do most of the tasks-- the different AR tools do combine a lot of the functions... plus, in the field, redundancy is the way to go ("two is one, one is none").

My mother has been a teacher in the NJ system for a few years now, and with two masters, having retired from working for Princeton U. after 20 years... she's only getting around 52K, and, of course, won't be offered tenure. A few of my friends in the NYC public system and other northern NJ schools also are facing the same issues. With that said, there are definitely teachers who make obscene amounts... and that's not surprising considering there will always be that "select few." However, considering this is a systematic issue, and not necessarily personal, seemingly the faults land on the administration versus teachers.

StriderTB, is that CMORE optic the polymer or metal model? And how do you like it? I've seen it a couple times in the past, and read a few things online in passing-- but I've never had the opportunity to actually ask someone how they liked it. And nice looking M4gery, nick. Any plans for an optic? If so, what were you thinking?

This is somewhat indirect to the issue, but might have a direct correlation... isn't one of the more quiet, subtle issues driving this crisis the lack of children born in the 80's and 90's (and even now). I think the numbers use to be 8:1 or something, eight being the number of full time working individuals supporting one person who was on benefits. But because of the steep drop in offspring, the number is now closer to 3:1 or 2:1? I don't know how much of a difference it makes, but if it is indeed an issue... doesn't really seem to be any short-term solution, aside from accepting immigrants to fill that gap (since it'd be a generational issue). As for the OP, I agree that its a matter of the administrators and not the teachers. I have a friend who works for a hedge fund now, but prior she had worked with a union in NYC, and absolutely hated it (she's pretty liberal too) because the organization was just sleazy and inefficient.

I used the US Army version a couple times... really interesting stuff to run through. Its called Engagement Skills Traininer (EST) 2000 (http://www.peostri.army.mil/PRODUCTS/EST_2000/). The one I experienced had a HUGE wall, the size of a small movie theater screen, with carbines, light support weapons, and stationary M2s setup to run through different situations. The mechanics of the weapons are all the same. The bolts snap back to simulate felt recoil, jams were simulated on occasion, and the M2s (from my experience) were notorious for sucking... but pretty effective when it worked. What's awesome about it is that it can run the same situation multiple times, all with different caveats. Some are shoot/no-shoot situations, others are fast reaction, etc. There have also been ones where it was simple marksmanship, etc. And while there is nothing like actual training, sometimes a unit or personnel don't have that sort of time to go to the field... so, instead, everyone straps on their battle rattle, and gets to enjoy a nice AC room.

I have an acquaintance who chose to purchase a Sig as an off-duty weapon, to replace his G26. For him to carry that specific handgun, he had to qualify with it under his department's standards and fill out some paperwork. Its probably been said already, but that's my personal experience with a LEO who carries an off-duty/CCW.

You kidding me? I'll be the one complaining about the smell, and my nose hardly works (it does when it wants too). Shane did bring up a lot of good points... many of them the exact things I had been thinking when I purchased my DMS-1. But ultimately the weight is what kills it for me. I do have a second upper that I've attached my DMS-1 too for the time being, and if I need to G.O.O.D, then I'll just take it off and throw it in my bag. The only thing that does make me second guess this decision is the point of identification that Shane brought up (and equally countered with having a spotter or whatnot). I'm not necessarily concerned with engaging in targets beyond 100m in any situation, even if it SHTF and there were zombies lumbering around. However, having the ability to positively identify a threat before making any kind of decision is paramount-- especially in an HD situation and even SHTF-situation. The last thing I would want to do is identify anything with a round. I guess to make up for that, even if I was lacking a spotter-type, I do keep a set of magnification with my rigs... plus, having AA batteries would benefit more then the optics, and could be used for a wide array of electronics and be used for trading. I am considering getting an Aimpoint, probably a T-1 like I've discussed with "Pete" ( ) before. I feel like I would have an easier time picking up the dot in a smaller diameter of glass. So, maybe down the road, though hopefully before the zombies come knocking :? As for the vids with Simon Pegg and Nick Frost, I remember watching those when they originally aired. From what I've read, they're as zombie-obsessed as other people out there... except they actually have a disposable income! Lucky.

Do you mean bull barrel or crowned barrel? Maybe I'm confusing aspects of the two, but I don't think any of the Smith and Wesson ARs come with a bull barrel stock (definitely not the SW MP15FT)-- but the NJ compliant ones do come with a crowned barrel (no muzzle device or threads). As for models that have bull barrels, I'm sure someone else can fill you in (or Google). Also, don't worry about getting a rifle w/ quad rails. Just buy the handguards aftermarket, it will cost you less for the same thing-- plus you can have the satisfaction of getting the brand you want. As for the rifle itself, almost every AR being sold now comes with an A3 style upper receiver.

I just watched that movie again the other day actually. All that clip shows is that any side, taken to the extreme, is detrimental to society. Looking out for the greater good at its extreme is as bad as individualism at its extreme as well.

I'd carry as much as possible-- but for me it'd be eight magazines (NJ compliant 15 rds), which is compensating for the fact that we have neutered mag limits. I have a dedicated amount of ammo in my BOB ready to go as well. And yes, I have a rig to go with it, which is what really sets my standard.

Aimpoints! :oops: Ha, I don't have anything against them (no fanboyism here). I just have a problem with the dot itself. I don't have any color blindness and my vision isn't that bad, but I've always had an issue with picking up the dot quickly. A lot of people complain that the EOTech reticle set up is too much, but personally I love it. But you're right, 26+ oz does seem quite digressive when talking about a SHTF ready rifle, ha. I have humped around with worse, but if I don't need the weight, why haul it around? I have already marked it on the rails, though I suppose I should consider investing in a QD attachment maybe. Well, thanks, Pete... oh wait, "Pete", for setting me straight

OK, I had to post here because this thread was about to fall off the first page, which cannot happen. I figure I would bring up the dilemma that I'm currently facing. I could easily discuss this in the Optics and Accessories thread, but I figure its more fitting here. The quasi-dilemma I'm facing is that if/when SHTF, should I rely on my EOTech or my 1-4x variable power scope? The EOTech model I have runs off AAs, which I chose on purpose considering the popularity of AA batteries. Regardless of how long it can run compared to other brands, batteries can/have to be replaced for whatever reason eventually... and if anything, its just good to keep the batteries as fresh as possible (same reason why we replace our smoke detector batteries, preventative maintenance). This would force me to keep possibly a good amount of batteries, which occupy space and are weight. Also, disposing of batteries can be messy and hazardous if not done properly. On the other hand I have the 1-4x variable power scope, and its only real downfall is that its freaking heavy. The fact that its almost an extra two pounds (26oz~), compared to the EOTech (which is no lightweight either) at 11oz I want to say. Other then that, having the ability to function as an almost true 1x, but also reach out is a huge plus... and it doesn't need batteries (it does use batteries for illumination purposes, but not needed to function). Of course, this dilemma goes beyond zombies and other SHTF situations (though, imagine if an EMP went off-- then electronic optics really would be pretty useless in theory). To me, relying on batteries for an HD situation is worrisome, even though I know the batteries probably won't just stop working all of a sudden. For the time being, I've switched back to the variable power scope, and I'm getting use to shooting with it again (since I changed my LOP of my buttstock)... but truth is that shooting with the EOTech is of course far easier. Opinions? Maybe some of you have thought about this same issue (not necessarily in application of zombies or S hitting the F).

Haha, omg, typo of the year? I'm pretty sure its suppose to read "Osama" as the article is referring to the story from a few days ago when AG Holder admitted Osama Bin Laden probably won't be captured alive (saying he's either dead already or might be captured dead). Either way, wow, classy.

Hey, rscalzo is looking out for the welfare of the greater good, and I can agree with him on that. At the personal level too, sometimes its best to come out of a crisis with our lives/well being then possibly losing it all. Then of course, personally, I'd stay back myself and defend my property and my neighbors if the worst of the flooding was over, and it was just a means of surviving the aftermath. ETA: When I say that I would "defend," I mean this in the context of the law. I just wanted to make sure that was clear before someone bit my head off because they misinterpreted what I was saying.

I don't know how I missed following up on this thread, my bad. I run a DMS-1 with the Burris AR-P.E.P.R 30MM mount: http://www.burrisoptics.com/arpepr.html So, yes, with the mount (8.7oz) and scope (18oz), it adds roughly ~26oz. The height of the mount I use isn't an issue with me, and it clears the first generation Magpul MBUS (which is notorious for not folding completely flat like the Troy models). I'm not sure what would qualify as medium or tall rings, but that mount works fine for me (and its measurements are detailed in the link for reference).

Seriously, I'm assuming you can't write the big signs on the outside of your house that say "LOOTERS WILL BE SHOT" like they do in Texas since we, citizens, can't really protect ourselves or our property?

I was at SS today (the guy who was firing the obnoxiously loud AR-- yes, with frangible rounds I purchased at the store), and I was pleasantly surprised with their selection of both handguns and long guns. I hadn't been there since maybe a year ago when the gun-craze was in full effect, so that might explain why I did not see that many rifles then. However, they had a generous amount on the wall today, and their selection of pistols was outstanding as usual. I also stopped by Atlantic Tactical today with my buddy in Somerset. I've personally never shopped there, so I can't comment on prices or service. In the store, they had a small display of handguns and rifles-- all of which were directed towards the LEO types, which is expected. My friend who did buy from them said that if a person wanted something specific, they would most likely have to order it-- which he pointed out he didn't have any issues with the people at Atlantic Tactical. Obviously worked out for him. As for Cheyenne, its my "home" shop considering its proximity. If I wanted to see a firearm in person, Cheyenne has always had it in stock so I could handle it and get a feel for it which is a plus. When they first opened after the move from the old Harry's location, it did take them awhile to get things in stock-- but there are no issues now really. I wouldn't recommend going on the weekends though because that place gets packed. I was there this past Saturday, and after standing around for a couple minutes and seeing how many people were trying to be helped, I gave up (there were four or five guys behind the counter). I wouldn't say that reflects poorly on Cheyenne at all as they had plenty of guys on deck to help-- just an overabundance of customers! As for other items, they have a good variety of firearms cleaning stuff, cases, holsters now, etc. They also have a decent amount of stuff for bows and crossbows (though I couldn't explain much since I have no knowledge in the field).

I talked about backup iron sights, but I failed to mention that I think they are a necessity. These days, most AR variations that are available are flat-top/optic ready versions. Some models have the NJ-complaint conventional front sight base (NJ-compliant in that the bayonet lug is removed), and only a rear backup sight is needed. Other models are complete flat-tops, needing both a front and rear BUIS. Too often do I see people with decent optics, but no BUIS. While I won't criticize people for that, I think it is digressive in application. If a person runs a scoped optic, its somewhat understandable not to have any BUIS considering the scope will function regardless. But if a person is running a red dot-type scope (Aimpoint, EOTech, C More, etc) with no BUIS, I think that's where I kind of shake my head. Chances are the sights will continue to function for the allotted amount of time that they are needed. However, if a person is in a crisis situation, and their battery-powered sights fail, at least they will have their BUIS ready to go. You said you were considering using an AR for SHTF situation (like a lot of us here, haha), so I would definitely recommend BUIS regardless if you have a scoped optic or red dot-type. Becoming proficient is another matter, and that just takes time.

I'm not an expert, but I think I've been around AR platforms and used them in different means to answer some questions. Would you regret it if you bought something other then a Colt? No. There are plenty of well made ARs out there that there is no need to pigeon hole yourself into group think ideas. Colt definitely puts out finely machined ARs, and if you can get one for a decent price-- I do not think it would be a bad choice. Instead of listing ARs by how great they are-- try to figure out the ones you should avoid. And, even better, figure out what aspects of the AR you want and which ones are not deal breakers (IE: 1x7 vs. 1x9, M4 feed ramps, hammer forged, etc). If you're not entirely familiar with the AR, maybe you can find someone who has some experience with the system to show you the ropes. Or you can take an instructed course-- plenty of those for the AR. As for optics, it'll probably come down to preference. I personally have a holographic weapon system (EOTech 517) and a variable power scope (1-4x). One is because I'm used to it (the 517), the other is for SHTF (1-4x scope doesn't need batteries!). ACOGs are absolutely awesome, but do cost a pretty penny. If you can afford an ACOG, by all means get one-- I'm saving up for one myself. As for backup irons (BUIS), its a world in itself. There are fixed backup irons and folding back up irons... the big companies such as Troy Industries, YHM, GG&G provide products in both. I personally run a Magpul MBUS for my rear backup irons. .223 ammo really isn't all that expensive. If you are going to spend the money on the rifle, might as well spend the money on the ammo as well. That's not to say you need to drop $500 tomorrow for all of the ammo at once-- as you're already familiar with since you have other calibers. As for other AR accessories, like a VFG (vertical front grip), sling, transport case, etc... chances are you will continually evolve what you put on your AR. I've taken my AR to the range 10+ times, and each time there has been probably some type of change from the last iteration. But to answer your question: I wouldn't say a VFG is necessary. VFGs were created for the M4 platform for the military because of the wealth of stuff they would put on their weapon systems (optics, irons, PEQ-2, lights). Since there was so much stuff on the rifles, there was nowhere to grip conventionally. Because of this, the VFG was created. These days everyone has one regardless for whatever reason. For some its tacti-cool, for others it has some use. I run a VFG, but use it as a thumb-break (so my hand lands in the same grip every time). As for slings-- yes, get one! Its like having a holster for a pistol. The type of sling is preference... some prefer the conventional two-point slings, others prefer three-point or one-point. If you're not familiar with how they feel exactly, try to figure out your application-- and figure out what type of sling would best suit that. Cases... eh, there's thousands of different iterations that all do the same thing. PM me if you want considering how long I just made this post in response, haha.

Honestly, if the Fed wants to investigate you, they will find the means too. Whether they use DOJ SOP or call in the heavy from the DOD assets, you can't hide from them :naughty: So, like Damaged, I don't concern myself with privacy issues. Sure, I do concern myself with OPSEC, but that's against the criminal public, haha. For example, if I get a few purchases, I won't just leave the boxes outside to advertise I just got some new, expensive stuff. I also tuck things away in my trunk (if I happen to go shopping), and leave the inside of my vehicle as barren as possible as a deterrent. I also don't put bumper stickers on my vehicle because [they're pointless and a mess to clean off] I don't want to be a moving advertisement of stuff that people might want. But in terms of my life as a whole, its an "open book." Just look at the fine print of everything you sign if you're truly paranoid... and if it still bothers you, live off the grid because that's the only way to be free of it. As for foreign CI and hackers (because they're often one in the same/contracted/equally capable), that's the only gray area. I'm careful with the information that I broadcast over the internet, limiting it to information that could be accessed regardless. But in terms of limited access materials, I use different methods of hardening.