Shane45

Im actually comfortable with all of the above from a proficiency standpoint. I just like painting Ray into a corner logically speaking Its my new hobby . Ray, I think that might have more to do with gross sales and a former American culture of hunting.... Glenn, I only remember pulling the trigger once, I dont know how the other 14 got there! BBK, well send the shotty boys in first when the zombies attack. It will make it easier for use because they will be full and slower

Tommy, I appologise but there is just NO WAY my aging brain is going to remember his name. His moonlight job was teaching forensic science at colloge so this converation is OOOOOOLD but even then its where my thinking was .

Done!

I use only LMT fixed sights. Not a fan of flips. If I HAVE to have a flip rear for say an SPR, the KAC600 is my preferance.

For fun comparison. SRS 6 rounds X 5224Ft Lbs = 31,344. So Ray, using your math Criteria, A rifle wins

:thsmiley_deadhorse: There are other weights than 55grn. Id give up the 400 ft lbs of energy advantage of the shotty for 1 shot to have an additional 10,000 ft lbs of energy on tap over the shotty's 0 ◦Ammo Caliber: 223 Remington/5.56 NATO ◦Bullet Weight: 75 Grains ◦Ammo Muzzle Velocity: 2790 FPS ◦Ammo Muzzle Energy: 1296 FT LBS ◦Bullet Type: Boat Tail Hollow Point Match ◦Ballistic Coefficient: .395 ◦Sectional Density: .214 Shotty 6 rounds X 1700Ft Lbs = 10,200 -1 = 8500 ft lbs remaining Rifle 15 Rounds X 1296 Ft Lbs = 19,440 -1 = 18,144 Ft lbs remaining

If simple math is your guide, then I would be well served pulling the scope off my SRS and slapping irons on it. Its shorter than your shotty and from a math perspective..... its no contest. Or perhaps a double barrel 10 Guage, wouldnt that be better?

On the topic of announcement to the BG, personally I disagree with this practice. If I believe there to be a grave threat in my house, why in gods name would I want to give away my position? My announcement that Im armed may result in a hail of gunfire in my direction!

THIS IS BAD ADVICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thankfully I am in good company on this opinion. Eminant danger for self or loved ones is correct. I take major issue with the "exaggerate details any which way you like" statement. If you were in a postion of eminant danger, you need not exagerate ANYTHING! You run the risk of turning a clean shoot into a bad one because you WILL be questioned. At the time of questioning if you get fast and loose with the facts there is the VERY strang possability that deception in your statements will be detected. You will turn from justified to a person of interest REAL QUICK! Then let 1 shred of forensic evidence not jive with your statements and you now have a mounting preponderance of evidence against you. 2 others that feel this way, Massad Ayoob - Expert witness for shootings and the Lead Forensic Scientist for New Jersey State Police.

Ray, perhaps I am being to dismissive. I would like to hear why "at room distance NOTHING beats a pump.". What is your basis for this statement? Shane

Keep living the fantasy Ray.

On that Stan Lee show, the accelerometer said Bob's gun was pulling 10 G's on the Draw!

DSA uses two companies for their lowers. LMT and Superior. Im not a fan of superior. They did me wrong on a deal. To add to that I have been told a number of times their quality is a bit below average.

There are MANY MANY quality lowers so it kinda comes down to preferance. If I were starting a build tomorow it would be either Seekins or Vltor.

Thanks Jimmy, it was a Looooong road measured in many years to get there! The funny part is the guy that wants to trade the SCAR is the one who ended up with my AIAW but not from me. I sold it to someone else!

I didnt want to put holes in my bench so I mounted 2X10's to the wall studs with a giant aluminum angle plate on the end. I also needed it to be inset and not hang over so I could wheel the Busa in and out. It is very riged this way. Ill try and snap a pic or 2 later. Shane

My bet is Bob wouldnt allow it. If I were him I wouldnt eather. I dont want my prize winning technique picked apart by my competitors.

Very nice! Im near the end of buying new rifles. Soon it will be old rifles

Guilty as charged

Yes I do. Heres a pic of my SRS 338LM and my Custom GA Precision .260 on a Noveske lower. Right now I have a trade offer for a new SCAR16 in black wit that 800 dollar Sufire light kit on it for the GAP!!!! What to do what to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The key to the question is how much precision are you looking for at what distance. I have an AR pattern rifle that is easily 1000yd capable. BUT the simple fact is in the realm of precision rifle, semi's are harder to drive and less forgiving at the upper realm of precision. If your looking to hold 1.5MOA to 100 or even 300, that task is not that hard and can fairly easily be achieved by either platform. Go sub MOA at 300 and beyond and the needs start to climb. Damagedworld, I contend that Semi's can be bolt gun accurate, its the shooter that usually isnt. My AR is probably the most accurate rifle in my safe just edging out the SRS, at least in my hands. Its last group fired was around .4 moa @ 300 yards.

Old School, I think we are probably less far off than it looks. I appologise if my Myth Busters reference sounded condescending. I merely wanted to point out the tendancey of hyper velocity to frag and stop compared to low vel that can penn more. Counter intuitive but true. I also respect your optinions and Im always open to consider and learn. Please do send on that PM, Im very interested in what you have to say. I think what we need to consider is the audience. And its a point I should have made better but aluded to previously. That is what you and I choose MAY NOT BE the best template for what anyone else should use. My advice to a friend to buy a 20ga pump for example. Its the best solution for him, not the best solution. Knowing your mindset, I would place a fiarly large bet that you have your fields of fire and prospecive backstops all figured out and know where, when and what to shoot. You have taken the limitations of the tool into consideration. But someone reading this thread may not have the experience or knowledge to even consider those things when considering a shotgun for this role. Something not discussed but again alluded to is that a rifle may bring far more liability to the situation if this tool is chosen by an inexperienced shooter. They are more complicated! If one point cane be a takeaway for the readers I think it should be: As is so often the case in firearms, tradeoffs are everywhere. The compromises need to be evaluated and decided upon on a highly individual basis. There is no best.

The 16" barrel on the mechtech makes it legal I believe. But adding that other thing to a glock makes it a SBR which you need a tax stamp for. In this state SBR's are verboten.

WEAVER!!! PizzaBob, My image of you is shattered!!!

http://www.polyshok.com/problem.htm http://www.polyshok.com/slug_problem.htm The Call-Out Bag by Gunsite Training Center Staff A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability. Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics. Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls. The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building: A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position. B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1. C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.) D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.) All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files. The following results were obtained: 1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning. 2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets. 3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles. 4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through. The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight! Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test. .22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2 9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2 9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2 .40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2 .40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2 .45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2 .45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2 .223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2 .223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2 .223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2