Shane45

Old School, I'm sorry but your contentions are simply wrong. Do some research. You will find a metric ton to the contrary of your postion. There are papers from various Fed agencies that have done the testing. This dictates the direction. Not some fantasies about PD's wanting to become tacticool. That statement right there tells me you have NEVER dealt with a PD selling them gear. They dont want to buy ****!!! Your 38 example is bad. Hell go watch myth busters for that answer. Why could the 9 hit the target in 4 feet of water when the ar couldnt in 1.... Ray Ray, please send all your criminals my way because they dont seem to mind working with you and getting into the position you feel is best. OK bad guy, you stand there, and I will be 7 yards away right here, ready, go! LOL. But if you do get a non cooperative bad guy, for example, like a deranged crack head that you spot from the top of the stairwell. He runs out the back door grabbing a butcher knife as he leaves. He's heading straight for your wife and daughter in the garden. Your at the second floor window. What do you want, the shotty or the rifle? Or better yet, 25 Gang members descend upon you like in the other thread. Which would you rather have? You need to understand, you dont get to pick the circumstances or the venue. You can paint your scenarios all day, but you need to remember in the real world, they get painted for you. THAT is why I want the tool with the greatest adaptability. I have all these tools. I have no emotional penchant for one over the other. I simply pick what I think is best for the task. What I dont do is pick on emotion or hearsay. I pick on anectdotal evidence. If someone asks my opinion, shotty or rifle, the empericle evidence drives my recomendation for rifle. But wait, Shane you said you recomended a 20 ga to your friend!!!! Thats right, I did, because there are other circumstances for him. He's not a reguler shooter, doesnt train, but wanted something for protection. In that case the shotgun is the best answer due to its simplicity to operate over a rifle. He did not want a revolver. If you only have a shotgun, use it but understand its limitations and that you have a tool that might fall short in some situations. That goes for ANY weapon. But to say the Shotgun is best is simply not the case. For me, I use neither for HD. I use a pistol. http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1275203

That aint legal anywhere you cant get an SBR stamp....

There is one point Id like to make....again. Choose wisely. There is a value in using what you have confidence in. But I submit that a fighting mindset and training with what you have is more important than the selection. Forget what Im using, fear me because I am the weapon. If I have to shove my fist wrapped around a .380 down the intruders throat and press it against his vital organ to protect my family, it is what I will do.

Ray, what are you worried about. Forget the shotty or the AR, they will run in terror when they see your shank on yer pistol!!! Kidding aside, Im sorry but ol faithfull is no match for a semiauto rifle with proper 5.56 ammo. You dont get to pick how the situation unfolds. The scope of a rifle is better. This is why you are seeing shotguns being replaced in squad cars with rifles.

Sandbags... whole nuther ball game but since I dont carry around sand bags I really dont have any interest shooting that way. The only time I do it is when Im trying to prove out the accuracy of a firearm, not my shooting ability.

M1's are out of my comfort zone but I would think it's ok because of no pistol grip, no mag.

No, Yankee, I misinterpreted what you said, sorry to cause any confusion.

Law abiding citizen comes to mind.... Yankee, Im puzzled by your coment about having children which makes me think you read 15636215's post wrong. I spoke with my father in law tonight about this. He worked Super max prison for 26 years. I tried talking him into guest speaking at our next event. Focusing on all the violent felons he watched come in, go out and back again. An argument I use on anti's all the time. I ask them if they ever watch those real life TV prison shows. Almost always they have seen them. They always turn an interesting shade of pale when I tell them 80% get back out! I end with yeah that 260 poung line backer with the tattood face will probably listen when you say stop or I'll say stop again!

Huh, What, what was the flag? OIC all messages got imported putting me like 150% over quota!

I would say 7 to 8 at 25 is VERY good.

On a budget, its hard to beat Savage. The other two rifles I am partial to in the lower end $$$ wise are the FN SPR and the Remy LTR.

I also dig that Naginata. I just wonder how much of the blades tang feeds down into the arm. AK in hand, Naginata or Katana on yer back Resident Evil style and your all set! Heres my Bugei Dragonfly. 3000 layers IIRC.

PX4 you can not compare your gerber to these pieces. Its apples oranges. For what they are those proces are pretty low!

Old school, Id take the Ar over the shotty any day of the week. Proper 5.56 is far better at not ovepenetrating than buckshot, this is fact. Your math is just that, math. It doesnt take anything into account other than the numbers. You can look up numbers all day long but in the end, if 50 shooting with bird shot are 50 failures to stop.... it doesnt matter what the numbers say. The problem for birdshot is penetration I believe. It makes hamburger of the surface but fails to get anywhere near the desired 12 inches of penn in tissue that pretty much every agency etc etc uses as one of the predictures of effectiveness to effectively reach vital organs. Lawsuits and that nonsemse are not the issue. Incapacitating your assailant enough to keep him from shooting you back is.

Yaknow....I looked at their blades and...welll...they seem truly functional!

A distant memory tells me it shares something with the Cetme but I do believe its actually a clone of the HK91.

Old school, actual shootings are what formed my opinion on birdshot... YMMV.

As usual, Pizza Bob puts in the time and effort to give a great, well explained answer!

I actually sent an email when this thread first hit knowing the questions would happen including my own. I will post if/when I hear back.

Jimmy, is over penn an issue at all? If so the shotty may not be your best choice. I have read AAR's from a few officers that were fist on scene or did the actual trigger pulling and their info was birdshot just dont do it! Even at close range. This means to me that buck would be in order but has bad over penn issues......

Anything using the speer gold dot....

Im great with faces, bad with names and thats X2 when its Board name vs real name Dont tell my boy, his head will get even bigger!

An SA or STG? Sounds right for a DSA STG from about 10 years ago. Current price on an SA58 is just shy of 1800!

Heavy Metal sounds good to me!

Bab, dont you have a Kriss?