Shane45

I think you should go research just how many SCARS have been produced! Its already an adopted rifle and i see it doing nothing but gaining momentum. The ACR on the other hand has gone the other way. Your ideas on business seem rather speculatory and seem to lack actual experience. This is not meant as a swipe at you but instead meant to point out that your position on the subject may lack real wold experience. I personally know many manufacturers in the industry and or have had direct or indirect dealings with them so my views are 1st hand. I personally buy about 2 mill a year from vendors at my day job so i have a lot of business dealings and I personally own a service company and a manufacturing comapny. And so again, my views are formed first hand by doing, not speculating. Here is a question for you. You have mentioned the SCAR and the ACR. Im betting you mention the SCAR because its already proven its self. I bet you mention the ACR because Im betting you believe its nearly as good and has a shot at mil adoption. But I dont here you mention the Robarm XCR. Is it because you dont believe they have a shot at mil adoption? Does that matter for you? I would take an XCR over an ACR any day of the week. Here is a rifle with many of the same features at a price point you would like to see this type of rifle at yet I have never heard you bring them up?

when you get it Id like to hear about it and maybe a through the scope pic or two

Its not one that is really on my radar so to speak but I have caught a few with them saying they liked them. If the illum is really daylight usable that would catch my interest as they would be succeeding where so many others are failing at 6X the $ amount!

Well.... when i hear time and again from trainers how overall the SCARS just arent going down in their classes... I truly see a value in that! Especially when you factor in the time, effort and expense to go to a training class. I think there is a flaw in your logic. production cost is nearly irrelevant. What if I figure out a way to make the BEST rifle in the world out of sand. It costs me 100 bucks to make. Should I only sell it for 200 or are you paying for my intellectual property, development, testing and everything else that goes with delivering a new product. No matter what it costs me to make I will be paid for the intellectual value, it being the best, and everything it costs me to bring it to market. You cant compare overall cost of a legacy product compared to the costs of engineering an entirely new one.

my bet is that you will find that the illum is not daylight usable. In other words you may be able to faintly see it in broad daylight, but it wont bu usable like an aimpoint. This is a dealbreaker for some and a non issue for others. Shane

As a business owner I appluad FN because they have moved a TON of rifles and keep getting top dollar for them! And frankly, I dont see the price as that much higher. Prices for the last 3 rifles 2 of wich are AR's were $1700, $2100 and the SCAR at 2300. The price dif between my last AR and my SCAR is only 200 bucks!!! Value IS ENTIRELY an individual thing. Either you see the value or you dont. If enough do, they buy the product. If enough do that matches nicely with production, your golden. You have to remember, a SCAR is only worth buying at 1500 for you. Thats your opinion. Thats your point of valuation. However the marketplace its self sees it differently as FN has no trouble selling all it makes at a higher dollar figure..... "But what is the actual value of a tier one rifle? What am I really getting out of a $2,000 SCAR that I can't get out of an $1100 AR-15..." I have said this time and again, it is quite posible you will never push the rifle to the envelope that it matters and therefore the extra expenditure brought diminished returns. So I can only tell you why I bought one. One friend put 5000 rounds through his without cleaning or lube. He did it on a hard firing schedule to the point it oosed carbon out of every orrafice. Zero malfs. My other friend who is a failure analysis engineer did a thourough test of the rifle. I liked what he had to say. Add mil trials into the equation and Im convinced its one tough SOB. Will any of that ever make a diff in my shooting world. Probably not! But I like knowing it can! One other benefit that is much more personal. I very, very much have grown to like the way the SCAR handles. Its significantly different than an AR.

DA, Im sorry but your business ideals are just off base! Why do you think AR manufacturers are going out of business daily! They saturated the market! Your so miopically focused on the cost of the rifle. It's the least expensive part of the total equation. Your entire contrived market plan is so you can have the best for the least. Sorry but Capitalism doesnt work that way. It WONT be cheaper, the companies profit margins will be higher! These arent non profit companies we are talking about here! I am BY NO MEANS rich or even well to do but somehow with 1 kid in college and 1 in grade school and everything else that comes with the cost of a family I managed aquire quality tier 1 rifles. But the rifle its self is a buy one cry once affair. If you cant scrape together 2300 bucks, how are you going to afford training, ammo, a class or two a year, accessories over lets say a 20 year period? The rifle is a one time expence. If your not going to do any of these things and your just after the bragging right of owning a black rifle, then buy an Olympic Plinker because it just doesnt matter. Like I said in another thread about pistols translates to rifles as well. In 10 years you could easily spend 20k in the consumables, traning, competing etc etc. So the rifle is only roughly 10% of the overall cost for a 10 year period. Its the cheapest part of the equation. Cant afford a SCAR, buy one of the others you mentioned.It will do the job! Your idea that Hyundai should be allowed to build Mercedes so the masses can have one too does indeed sound very.....socialistic........

FN Ballista! Im on the short list for one but....Im not sure Ill have the coin in time!!!!

Well, is it a coincidence that the AR's that are built by those that hold or are adhering closest to the TDP seem to also be the Teir 1 AR's that hold up the best in training classes with "hard use" courses of fire? DA, I think we will just have to accept we are on opposite sides of the fence on this. I understand your point, direction and motivation but I really think it is one of those, looks good on paper but doesnt translate to reality kind of things...

Whats the matter Ray, civil debate somehting totally forign to you?

It is not an open TDP! Very few manufacturers actually hold the TDP. Even though the gov holds the TDP to the M4, Colt would still recieve a royalty for any M4 manufactured for the govt that wasnt made by Colt. This gets into that whole milspec thing which I just cant do one more time so here is an article that does a good job. http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2259&cid=4

Kaiser, I do agree and believe that the civy public does indeed embrace what the mil uses. To me its simple logic they are applying. I think there is an accepted position that if it survives them and their testing its surely good enough for me. I think in most cases this is probably sound.

It has nothing to do with greed. Im not speaking from a speculative view.here. This is a conversation I have had with manufacturers in this industry. Some sub everything out like XXXX(decided not to name names), and consequently I would make a large bet that the new CNC machines they bought to make the items in house was due in large part getting tired of what relying on third party vendors does to your business! I would NEVER want to sub out for the products I make. I just wont do it. I put my blood sweat and boatloads of money into developing my products and i am certainly not going to put its reputation in the hands of others. I DO believe that the reputation of the AR and 1911's have suffered quite a bit due to everyone and their uncle making one. In your "licensing" model what you have created is the exact thing the AR world has going on now. A new buyer has to rely on someone with a PHD in AR to tell them what is good and what is sh!t. I want a Porche made by Porche, not hyundai. So I will save and buy the Porche from Porche if that is my inclination. If you can only afford a Honda, either save mrore or buy the Honda.There isnt anything terribly new in marketing. So I think its safe to say no one embraces the licensing model for good reason. Do you think the designers at Magpul are happy with the way Licensing the Masada has turned out? I bet not..... If you think the Rollmark is the only difference, you just dont understand........

I cant even begin to tell you how much of a bad idea this is! Would you REALLY want the reputation of your product placed squarely in the hands of companies trying to make the cheapest version? And frankly the market would want the mill version anyway. Thats the very first thing that starting coming out of everyones mouths when there was going to be a Remy ACR for mil contracts. Suddenly everyone wanted the remy version. I dont think your master plan of socialist manufacturing will work out to well. So just eat some raman save up and get the good one when you can Its also bad business. Look at Harley Davidson. When they kept a healthy demand profits remained high for many years. When they upped production and overhead, its been the worst times for them in a looooong time. Many manufacturers submitting weapons systems for various gov contracts have repealed their intrest because they are not willing to let their product be manufactured by others. I agree with this position. I have personally seen this in manufacturing many times over. Companies that say they can do it just as well trying to get the sub out business on a component. And then when its time to make your product and the parts arent up to snuff, you miss delivery deadlines as a result. I believe in controlling as much as you possibly can if you care about your products reputation....

I think that may be true of some companies like Barrett but might not be true for companies like Knights Armament. However, with all the anouncements of mil budget cuts, I would sure place a bet that the civy market wil get more attention. The downside of this is you might see Zombie plastered all over everything which has already started to occur . Its a slippery slope if the mall ninja becomes the target market!

Adsolutely! They just won another contract and that is why 16's and 17's will likely get scarce for a while as the contract will take up the next 3 months of production. https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=25398bbee12496a7a88b87b3123b2d3e&tab=core&_cview=0

I believe it just doesnt matter. If essentially the diff is 1 hole in the side and a different trigger, someone is going to end up at a congressional review....

I would agree its not their focus but not ignored or treated like HK customer who in my opinion have a valid complaint. On the topic of the could, no they cant. It would actually be a giant legal violation if they were to reduce prices below what is on the gov contract... and this is what gets companies like KAC in the cross hairs of the civy market. The civy market just doesnt understand or want to accept the expenses associated with selling to the govt. They cant dismiss or not take into account those expenses because its a civy sale vs mil sale.

I dont know what DOD rules are regarding ammo but considering the massive copper theft that took place a few years back, I doubt it is anywhere near what is required for weapons manufacturing. I will continue to diagree with your position on FN and civy sales. But hey, what do I know? I mean after all my PS90 was a personal favor to me from the VP of civy and LE sales at FN

2 things #1 It is not the same. DOD manufacturing requirements require segregated facilties, segregated inspection areas, minimum manufacturing output capabilities, meeting strict DOD security guidlines maintaining a secure facility etc etc. Its a long list adding many times multiple millions of dollars to production costs. Inspection is also a significantly greater expence that the civy world tends not to appreciate such as EVERY bolt being MPI tested as opposed to every 1 in 100 or not at all for example. #2 is a simple precept of business. If sales outstrips production, charge more.... This is basic business economics. It does not matter one bit if at the end of the day if a honda and a mercedes cost the same to make, they will not be the same price! I have yet to see a glut of SCAR's on the market. Quite the contrary I get asked regulerly where one can be found, especially if its FDE! LOL

DA, most people miss a SIGNIFICANT key point in production costs. And that is the price of manufacturing under DOD rules. Bushmaster makes nothing for the Gov as far as I know so their production costs are not inhibited the same way a manufacturer who does DOD contracts is. I can tell you this is a very significant expense! On the topic of ammo lethality, some current crops of mil ammo have been proving very effective like Mk318. With that being said I would love for the US to just tell the world piss off and use the same kinds of ammo available commercially!!!

DA, the SCAR does in fact have a number of accessories. Extended front rails, Giessle triggers, stocks, different charging handles.... In my opinion the SCAR is far more complete than you give it credit for. And I completely disagree with your statement about FN being like HK. I think FN has gone out of its way to bring each of its military versions to the civy market. That approach has done well for FN as they have moved a ton of SCAR's, PS90's and FS2000's. As such you ave not seen the prices of these rifles really drop hardly at all.

Thanks for the compliment! Im sure at some point we will end up at the same range at the same time

Vlad, I understand your points. I was specifically debating the comments by Intercooler that the AK is practical and the AR is not. I think its modularity makes it highly practical. For ME as much as I love red dot sights, the abiility to engage targets at greater distance than 100 yards drives my kit selectionss to focus around magnified optics. Although I might be able to make com hits to 300 with a red dot, I cant do it in all lighting conditions and I surely cant ID the target F or F at those greater distances.

You did say the following right? "OK I have some extra money and want to buy a bolt action for range shooting only. So if you were me what would be your dream buy. Remember price is not an option, so let it go...Come on guys, let me know your dream rifle is. I want something new....Live your dream through me, maybe." I dont think I was alone in this interpretation judging by how many other posted rifles well over 10k. My point was to illuminate that perhaps you were unaware of the expense of such rifles and should perhaps put better perameters around what your looking for. Especially when seeking advice. I asure you tha 10k is by no means a lot for a rifle of this type. Is it well beyond the point of diminished returns for a new shooter SURE! But that was part of my point. Your initial post at least gave me the impression you did not have a budget limit although I suspected that was because you were unaware how much could be spent in this catagory. I currently have 2 rifles in the safe that exceed 10k and NEITHER hangs on a wall. In fact one of them already has several nics and scratches from being banged around. Not carlessly, just in use. Point in fact I realised that my last four rifles in this catagory exceeded 10k. I guess I didnt think of it this way because I bought the same rifle twice times two. So in other words my last 4 rifles were the same make and model twice in a row. My current long range precision rifle is a DTA SRS that is well optioned out. The rifle and factory accessories is about 7k. The scope,QD mount, bipod and sling were around an additional 4200. My previous rig was just about identical in price.