Shane45

If you dont have time to do it right to begin with you surely dont have time to do it again!

Guys I hate to say it but if one of my products costs me exactly the same to make as other products but people will pay more for mine, I will charge more. Any business that does not operate this way likely wont be in business long..... You simply cannot look at production costs alone. Wheres it made? Whats the labor rate there? Does the manufacturer provide weapons to the US military? Any idea what that does to overhead costs to make a facility meet DOD req's for a military firearm manufacturer???? Its not simply production costs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vlad, if it works for you, march on brother. For me Ill choose accuracy and modularity over what I consider a non issue. I havent hit the point that my rifle gums its self to a stop yet but its expected to be around 2000 rounds without lube or cleaning. I dont see a practical benefit to something that can go more. Im not running around with 4000 rounds strapped to my back! So on the topic of modularity, how easily/quickly could you change your AK from this to this?

Is there room for improvement, always. Way better? Im not so sure. In consideration of those at the tip of the spear, look at how many passed on the SCAR to keep their M4. It is my opinion that from a design and engineering standpoint the SCAR is a superior rifle. However, put a teir 1 AR or a SCAR in my hands and well it just simply doesnt seem to matter. I have both and neither has failed me ever. Neither has been cleaned even once since I got them. The sinlgle only FTF I have even had was with the SCAR when some crappy culled cproducts mag made its way back into my range bag instead of under the heal of my boot. That mag did not work in ANYTHING.

"The AR is crappy in that it needs to be babied, which is something that should never be required of a mil-spec weapon" What is your personal experience to validate this viewpoint? I think it becomes rhetoric when this statement is made over and over on the internet without supporting evidence or experience.

DA, Im not saying its much better, im responding to the mall ninja comments and the claim of user friendly and practicality......... I WILL say its much better for me!

AK, practacality, HA thats a good one! tell ya what, we can stand side by side and do a timed mag change. Then we can move over to a table filled with kit such as a DBAL, PVS 14, Red dot, Acog, scope, light, bipod etc etc and go through changing the config of the rifle. We will see which is more practical... Me thinks mall Ninja applies better to those that chant the ak cool aid, insult the AR owners of the world and dont provide ANY logical reasons for their position....

9X25 data. 115gr FMJ Winchester Fed 215 15.1gr VV N110 1.268 1547 fps

Hehe been there have that in the form of an STI. 15 rnds of 45 goodness. Maks and Jon, dont laugh, I though of building up a 9X25 Dillon for the f of it I also like the 9X23 too!

Well.... my buddy that has drawer after drawer of full customs, and other drawrs ful of wilsons, bears, browns etc etc would likely disagree with you He would see 1500 as a bargain!

Gotcha. Its an interesting discussion that in my mind boils down to which is a better plan? A slightly better effectiveness vs more chances to make a vital hit. And for me the consideration is expanded out to which pistol type I shoot better. I believe Im more likely to make effective hits with the lower capacity of the 1911 than the higher capacity of a doublestack 9 because I shoot a 1911 much better. But if I found a 9 that I shot equally as well, I might side with capacity. To me shot placement is key as has been said before. But a pistol is really just the tool to fight my way to my rifle

Smokin, if Im tracking your position corecctly that caliber trumps design, Im hear to tell you that your wrong. And this isnt based on shooting goo or data from a testor that got tons of free ammo from the vendor that convieniently came out best in their studies. Its based on compiling data of actual shootings. For example, going from memory so dont quote this data as gospel but you will get the point, certain brands of 9mm and 45 were in the low to mid 60% effectiveness at stoping the bad guy. Good designs were in the mid to high 80's. So one could easily see that you would be FAR better off with a good 9mm over a bad 45. So in other words given the choice I would take a 9 loaded with winny ranger ammo over a 45 loaded with ball ammo any day of the week!

Lets talk abut price for a second. I think this part of the equation is HIGHLY subjective. I am by no means a wealthy man but in my opinion and for me, anything under 1500 bucks is truly inexpensive. As I have said in other threads, in the big picture the firearm its self is usually the smaller part of the equation. Its a one time expense and if you amortise it over a lifitime or shooting career or the life of the weapon, its a small number. But training, shooting, competitions etc etc is an expense that never stops. So say 1 class a year at $250, 2000 rounds of ammo for a year as a non reloader at say $750 over 20 years, thats $20,000! Pistol cost over 20 years @ 650 to 1500 looks rather small in this picture dont it? As many know I research research research, test test test and then buy the best I can afford with a buy once cry once position on the subject. In the case of the HK, Sig, Glock, FN, M&P your buying thefeature set you like best and the one that fits you well. So there is no best, only whats best for you! They are all good for one reason or another.

My opinions are largely formed from my time I was part of the Ammolab. We reviewd 1000's of actual shootings, tested the characteristics of the ammo's that were effective, and used that as predictors of new ammo offerings. One thing worthy of note, we accepted no "donations" from ammo manufacturers!!! At any rate I believe in a minimum calber basement AND cieling! Calibers that were at either end of the spectrum had the least effective results. Both for the same reason in my opinion. Lack of transfer of energy to target. I prefer 45's but I would have no problem at all with a 9mm. I prefer the 45 because I prefer 1911's. But in my mind its a basic precept. You have to either hit the central nervouse system or cause enough hydaulic leakage as fast as possible. The advantage a 9mm may afford is simply more chances to make the required hit.

Well... those all look like kabooms which may or may not be the fault of the istol in question.....

The HK's frame is metal?

Oh you IT guys, everyone knows your 125 soaking wet, milktoast white and living in mama's basement!

Well it certainly is the plan to keep expanding and have greater reach. We just arent there yet

Well the only brand I REALLY care about is the one with my name on the side

Not sure what you mean by clubhouse but we have them in North, Central, and South Jersey to be as fair as we possibly can.....Many times it is dictated by the speaker themselves who routinely travel very far as it is. Our last speaker drove something like 4 hours. It is not a matter of opposing opinions at all. Doesnt sound like you have attended meetings because there has been several good debates and counter points. But yours is neither, its a direct issue with the decisions of another organisation. Everyone else in this thread seems to understand that it would be in poor form to discuss one organisations business at another organisations event. Its simply rude to take that time away from the members of NJ2AS on a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with them......... Understand your issue is one of a personal agenda.

Im not saying it cant happen/doesnt happen/never happens as I am sure it does but I do find it interesting the HK is th only pistol I have never seen go doen at a match or on the range. I cannot say the same for SIG/S&W/Glock. As for the point and shoot, as I have said before the Glock is the absolute worst for me!!! The XD is next about half as bad as Glock. The HK and M&P both point well for me as they probably have the closest grip angle to 1911.

I seriously doubt Rachel Ray is serious.

I think im done watching... Shane's gone. My only hope is if Daryl picks up a little of the Shane's legacy. Otherwose I think its going to jump the shark a bit and become a little boring.

Futool, how dare you cast off the advice of Rachel Ray! Bullzeye, Nice grab! Not sure how that floated under my radar!