Shane45

Its multiple departments, same caliber, same cadre. So the only difference is the pistol. It doesnt matter if they were all experts or lousy shots. The bottom line was they improved. That gives an indication of the inherant shootability of the M&P over the Glock for those departments. BTW a sand test done by Larry Vickers, the Glock failed miserably compared to the HK and a Custom 1911. Having chatted with Larry a few times I take him at his word and credibility. Im sure there are many tests that achieved an opposite result. In the end I think they are all reasonably reliable but i have personally seen failures from almost every last one of them. Ive seen glocks shear their locking bars, a rash of sigs spit out their extractors etc etc. Its a mechanical device. The only one I havent seen go down is an HK. But Im sure those failures are out there too. Again, Im not here to bash Glock or even say its a bad pistol but I WILL say its a bad pistol for me. 2 main reasons. It points horribly for me and it has no external safety. I will also say that many of the things you are touting as key benefits are pretty much all insignificant issues for me. Also the fact that there is vastly more for a 1911 would indeed indicate that it has much greater support contrary to you comment that the Glock is the most supported pistol. The # of parts difference between a Glock and 1911 is less than 20. That doesnt account for over 100% more avaiable for the 1911. You have to learn to not speak in absolutes. If one wants an external safety, then the glock not having one certainly discludes it as having all the best features. What would be correct is to say that it has all the best features for you. Ive said it before. Confidence in your weapon is important. If Glocks work for you , great have at it. Just dont tell me the Glock is the one true religion and all others are false. I can make anything work, but I choose whats best for me based on my criteria and experience. And a glock aint even in my top 3!

I second Jon's coolaid reference. Superior for whome? Superior how? Superior in the same way an AK is superior for a conscript army? I actually find the M&P to be more refined and a better pistol. I have talked with a few departments whose qual scores jumped up considerably when they switched from Glocks to M&P's. That would seem to put a dent in the superiour theory. These criteria you list make no sense to me as benefits of one over the other. Mag capacity, sight radius, barrel length. 15 rounds is 15 rounds no matter whose pistol its in. Sight radius is dictated by slide length so unless a glock has a time space warp on top of its slide, roughly 4 inches is 4 inches no matter whose slide they sit on. Barrel length. Again, the length is the length no matter whose slide it sits in. A Glock does have reliability going for it, but so do many others. Refinement. Highly debatable. How refined can a squirt and jerk pistol be?!?! Accuracy. Well, I havent really shot a Glock that impressed me with inherent accuracy. Its acceptable accuracy in most cases but nothing spectaculerly worthy of special praise. I would in fact put the M&P ahead of the Glock. I find the trigger is better but more importantly the NPA of a Glock FOR ME is horrible. Its about 3 feet above the target!!!! I know many that have the same issue. More support than any other pistol? Really? Ok so I tested that theory. I punched 1911 into Brownells and got just shy of 1000 items, Glock, less than 400. Midway USA, 1911 just shy of 3000, glock less than 2000. So at a cursery glance I would say that statement is wrong. This post is NOT a Glock bash. If you like Glocks, have at it but i take exception to statements like "they are a superior pistol". For many they arent even marginal. Glocks true genious is getting the $ he does for a pistol that is so cheaply manufactured. As a Capitolist, I truly tip my hat to him in that regard.

To use police departments as the litmus paper test the simple data would suggest that there is inherrently less safety for a semiauto without a manual safty. It is documented many times over that PD's that have switched from a semi with a safety to one without has experienced an increase in AD/ND's. So much so that some dept's scrapped them and went back. Does that mean everyone will turn into a safety hazard with a Sig, Glock or M&P with no external safety. Certainly not BUT the above would suggest that if you give X amount of people (ALL of whome recieved some form of training) pistols with no external safty the ND/AD's do increase! Conversely the only reports I have come across for a failure to disengage the safety and fire has been when the bad guy got ahold of the weapon during the struggle and didnt know to disengage the safty to shoot the good guy.

The problem is that it has no consideration for anything other than hitting the target. So what if I had to take a head shot on the BG. I cant because my "bullet bolo" has a 10" radius . Not to even mention all the valid concerns of penetration etc etc. Frankly there are few things I will just call retarded but this is one of them. They better find a niche of bird hunters that like to hunt birds at close distance with handguns!

Yeah because for decades they had revolvers with 200lb triggers

From what I understand they were on assignment and moving quickly/a lot but the point is the oddball scenario. Yes my safety would be on if the suspects were under my control. For example proned out or grabbing some hood etc etc. But I could fathom the secnario it would be off too. But having a safety gives me the choice. I cant speak for anyone else if there is a concern of forgetting to take off the safety but what I can say for me is that it has never happened to me including many many matches that require the engagement and disengagement of said safety between many transitions of position, manipulating doors or retrieving simulated downed team mates, or retrieving the psitol from drawers, safes and tables as well.

So whats the likelyhood of a broken safety or accidental engagement vs brain fade / equipment hang /etc etc causing an AD/ND? The manual safety is in my opinion a layer of additional safety against human error which is the more likely scenario in my mind. I know of a number of Dept's that abandoned the Glock because of the rash of ND's. I know of 1 officer that took one in the hip because he packed his glock in the glock case loaded and when they packed the trunk, it compressed the case enough to set it off. I know another that had a discharge when a strap/buckle from his vest managed to get in the trigger guard upon reholstering. I know of a couple of ND's in high stress situations (holding suspects at gunpoint) that had ND's when they went to manipulate something with their left hand and had a gross motor skill reflexive response in their right hand. This has also happened for auditory input causing a reflexive responce. All these are fringe examples but all could hae been prevented by a manual safety. An article that discusses the topic. I agree that in most cases its a ND but that underlines my point that human error is the more likely issue. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/729088/posts

So far my fav's are Surefire and Battlecomp.

I only have pistols with a manual safety. This stems from being primarily a 1911 guy but even in a crunch and ticker I require a manual safety. Among the normal reasons everyone always states, I just simply feel the need for that mechanical barrier.

Because 308's suck for breaching doors

I didnt intend to come across as giving a hard time. Knowing of Cage's limited funds as he states, the plate carrier would be way down on the priority list if I were doing the picking. Probably finishing up the 5.56 build so I could shoot something a lot cheaper to shoot than the 17 would be my priority. Shane

Here ya go: An optic for the 17 even if its a RDS for now Upper for your 5.56 lower Battle belt/chest rig, some form of mag carrier training Ammo membership to an outddor range shotty surefire flashlight I can probably think of a few more, these are the off the top of my head items

Brother, I can think of several other items you could use b4 a plate carrier!!!

The fact that MANY teir 1 unts that have selection lattitude choose the 1911 should tell you something. I do not see it as any more maintenance than any other semiauto pistol. In fact I think the opposite can be argued because the service life expectancy of a 1911 is many times greater than other modern pistols.

Just remember the scope matters. Unfortunatly in the imperial world there are variations on the click value of arc a scope subtends. This is why I prefer mill based scopes. You need to know if your scope is adjusting in IPHY, SMOA, moa etc etc. At close range the error isnt that much but the further out you get it becomes compounded. For example, say your scope is adjusting in IPHY (inch per hundred yards) and you calculating in true moa, 1.047. Well, at 1000 yards for a 308 that could be a 20" deviation at the target end!

I had the same thought that this would be a great idea. Id like to see Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie as they are both shooters.

Joel, I think your right. There is so much pre programing of notions from so many different scources (probably mostly tv) that it may indeed be an issue that what should be obvious no longer is due to the muddying of the waters so to speak... It does seem to counter his own point to place a potential number of rounds reletive to the caliber for effectiveness thus perpetuating the notion there is such a thing.

Maybe its just me and Im grumpier than usual today, but the article strikes me as stating the obvious and putting a little creative interpretation in there. I guess what Im trying to say is that I dont need anyone to tell me to keep shooting the threat if he continues to be a threat. I guess I would like to think that anyone that has a firearm for defence or offence for that matter intrinsically knows this. I think he is trying to pigeon hole concepts into absolutes. I havent come across any trainers speaking in absolutes. I have never heard any of them say if you hit BG in CM with X he will go down for sure. About the only shot I know of that gives this guaruntee is the apricot shot. But that is a highly unlikely shot and so we focus on something that has a higher probability of actually hapening and thats a CM hit. This is why I have no problem with 9mm actually. I want as many chances with a reasonably effective cartridge to hit something vital. At any rate thanks for sharing the article.

Imperial, I like your setup. Very close to my own. The only exception is the single point sling. I hate single point because I hate getting wacked in the sack on a fast transition form rifle to pistol

Hehe I was waiting for that comment!!! Its not recycle day yet!

Wish I could have made it. With all my rifle swapping and optics musical chairs, I didnt have a single stick zeroed in and no time to get it done in time . That and Im getting over being sick and dont like running around with loaded guns when im not 100%

Thanks brother! Ill still trade ya for the beemer though

ps. Around 750lbs. But it carries it so low its manageable.

Naaaa not terrily interested in a naked, Id have just kept the busa. What I really needed to do was escape the sportbike position altogether. Unfortunatly due to my spinal fusion in my lower back I just couldnt tolerate the position any longer. If that wasnt an issue, the Busa wuld have never went anywhere. Thanks for the compliments guys!