Combat Auto

Vlad, interesting post - and I agree with you completely...Unfortunatly I often see a double standard applying these principles (not you per se just overall how the forum operates)...A recent example is the Shogun posts we have had recently...Where a person "claiming" he is a Police Person (although based on the way he communicates I highly doubt it), who often - not just to me, makes inflamitory remarks. .You know who I am talking about...Here is a few samples..Inflamitory or not? Is this OK because he (claims) he is a Cop? "But you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The above statement is the dumbest thing I have ever read regarding HD/CQB on the internets". "It is calling the bull$hit that you posted bull$shit." "This is exactly the kind of irresponsible posting that I am talking about."

Couldn't agree with this post more...Thanks for a great job framing this issue out.

Quite the contrary my friend, based on most peoples posts, most people do not use ARs for HD. Either way, your missing the point, and untill you drop the "wrong"/right brain freeze, we will get no further in this (I thought we were done anyway until HE started it up again after several days :-))...There are many ways to approch HD and it is more about tactics, and context, then choice of weapon...Read NickCJ's post which I think is right on... (Seperatly, the issue with High Exposure is not so much that he recomends an AR - that is fine; It is his accusations of folks being "irresponsible" for stating thier views (if they don't agree with his (assuming I have his gender correct ;-))...And I am not the only one he pulled this stunt with. -High Exposure needs to be called out).

HE - good to see you back!...It is obvious at this point that you are a relatively young, Internet Troll, with lots of time on your hands...You know a little something about "tactical-gear", and want to be a "Police-Man" when you grow up...For now, you find "Self-Identification" as the NJGF "Caped-Crusader" saving us from ourselves (ah, the simple joys you get from accusing others of being "irresponsible" (definition: bloviation))....I can tell this by the way you express yourself, the lack of dynamic thinking, and persistance to be proven "right"...No way, an actual Cop, in a position of responsibility would act this way (at least I hope not).

Vlad, Vlad, Vlad, Different stokes...I never said SG is (BEST) I said one of the best...I think a valid argument could be made for either one...My beef is with the "absolutists" - if you don't use weaopne XYZ - you are putting lives at risk - and all such bloviating that comes with that kind of thinking.

I see High Exposeure is at it again with his wacky preaching...Man, (you) need to be called out...Quite honestly Bro, so you are a cop - fine - I respect that but I don't see what special knowledge you think you have over everyone else...You have (a) point of view, there are many others...We are here to have an open discussion of ideas - not to be judged/ranked/rated by you...And as I've posted on the other thread - you do come across as very arogant and bloviating...You would be of much better service as the "crusader" you claim to be with better communication skills. -Just sayin.

I like lasers for HD - on pistol's, SG, frying-pans, etc....(backed up by iron sights). Hard to argue with point and shoot at HD ranges - no need to come up to eye level if the situation calls for extreem speed, shooting at wierd angles etc....I can't "see" (pun intended) how a red-dot could be faster... For HE :-) my credentials are, I tried it over and over again at the range and in my home (with my pistols - still looking for a SG laser). I would like to get Old Dogs view on lasers as I see he is a fellow vet - and a combat one at that - and has spent much time thinking about it.

Wow, how ironic - just found this post from "Old Dog" to of all people "High-Exposure" in the "What Optics do you use" thread - right next door...Maybe High-E will now get the picture - different strokes for different folks - and open up his "field of vision" to many ways to approch a problem not just HE's :-)...BTW, OldDog if you are reading - on this Memorial Day - Thanks for Your Service!!! (From a fellow Veterean - we both made it back!). OLD Dogs Post to High Exposure: Well I shot a few VC that ran into our hootch in Nam with a plain old pump Rem 870 shotgun with a bead sight. It was like a house with one big room. Got a medal for that one. Cleared many huts and buildings and a few spider holes with that shottie. Used the 1911 mostly for the tunnels. Most times my M16 was being shot in extreme anger and/or fear. I also shot action shotgun matches and Sporting Clays for about 8 years and much prefer it over shooting at things that shoot back with automatic weapons. Heck, even my retired LEO friends never shot their guns in anger. I think I have more experience in using a shotgun at HD distances against people who shoot back than most people I have run into. How about you? Just training or have you seen the devil? Big differene between the two. One thing I learned is that most people's mental image of how they will react to being shot at never involves soiled pants, extreme fear and an uncontrollable urge to run away and yet I saw it happen all the time. Training never duplicates the physical stress of life and death so it only takes you so far. A lot of things sound good and logical in training but the real useful stuff I learned in the field. I hope that I answered your question about my qualifications to support my opinion.

I think your thinking makes alot of scense...How about adding a laser to the above HD config (as an option to use with the iron sights)? like to get your opinion because it sounds like you really thought this through..

HE, well cudoes to you for spending a chuck of time posting this... I only "attacked" you because you attacked "me" first - I am sure you would acknowledge that. It is obvious you have credentials, that we all here may make use of; it is unfortunate that your arrogance and continued attacks above will detract from that...For example, making fun of the fact that I watched a Training-DVD. - High Exposure - Really? - how old are you, 10? I will leave you with this last advise: 1) Your police training is fine and all good, but most of your comments are obvious, bloviating, overstatements (eg 45 acp isn't a guranteed to stop 1 shot. -We all know this)... 2) Approaching room clearing with a team vs an individual are 2 exteemly different things - I don't have to go to the Police Acadamy to realize that. I think your arrogance far outwieghs your ability to give practical advise to a "civiian". Sad really.

Those are wise words in general...But, I guess one could argue (not my situation personally) if you have kids down the hall you may have to go get them....

LOL - I didn't say ar isn't the best - just said I choose otherwise...Your point about all the variables is right on - and (exactly) why no one can say any one approach is the best... BTW, still havn't heard from any AR proponent how they clear a room (in detail)...All I heard is "AR".

Ok, so now we are getting somewhere...I never said one hand shooting is the best in all circumstances - of course it isn't...I said, for clearing a room in my small tight quarters house, that is how I train...Why? Because unlke the moveies, I don't think it is kicking in the door and blowing away the perp(s) on the far side of the room - well away from you....More likely, he is hiding behind the door ready to grab your weopon. The standard, well published, technique in this situation is to use your weak hand to ward off the attempt at your weopon, and shoot one handed while indexing near your chest. A laser on the pistol facilitates this trimendously. I augmented this standary technique with a machetti (excuse my spelling) in the weak hand (as stated, different strokes)...The "cutting the room into pie slices", is one of the standard approches, (using 2 hands on the pistol), and a good one - and I can accomplish this with one handed pistol/laser as needed. You suppose to be standing well away from the door so your weopon can't be grabbed. But not all doors/rooms, because of layout, work well with this alone. Hence, my specific approch with the knife/pistol/laser. Not saying my approch is best for everyone - depends on the context/layout, the enviornment, and how you train....But neither is using an "AR-always", and "two-handed pistol" in the HD context. So now that we are past the Junior HS stuff - I'd be interested to know how you clear a room in a HD situation by yourself? (I am always open to new ideas, or old ideas explained).

Not going to rehash my points again...No idea what the heck you are talking about as far as "trolling" - if I have a different view then you - that's trolling?...Nope, High exposure started with the inflammatory comments - go reread them again (see below)..You want to side with him that is your business (and a reflection on you), doesn’t change the fact that he posted some Knucklehead comments. This is what he said – inflammatory or not?: “But you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The above statement is the dumbest thing I have ever read regarding HD/CQB on the internets. At no point in your rambling do you even approach a cogent and valid argument. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.” It goes beyond inflammatory – with the mention of “God”…

BTW, even better than gost ring/red-dot for HD is a laser...Not a big fan of them except in the home...Point and shoot - no need to bring up to eye level...I have them on my HD-pistol, looking to get one for my SG....Have you tried a laser on your HD-AR?

Good posts...How about a light-laser combo...I am not a big laser fan (except for HD) - no need to bring a sight 9or red-dot) for that matter to eye level....What are your thoughts on SG w/laser - any recomendation for a model? (looking for one for my SG now).

Vlad, i can't argue with that - for you...For me, just as easy to line up a gost ring on a tactical SG - cause this is what I trained with. I also prefer a little spread that I get from 00...Different strokes as they say...Many ways to approch this and I am open minded enough to see and achnowledge as such...BUT, I do not concure with the argument that "cause the swat team uses an ar it is the best choice" which High-Exposure made...And that is what he stated...Swat generally operates in pairs/groups in CQs..HD you are generally on your own - big difference....But SG/AR/Pistol - all can work it is a matter of preference and training...And for High Exposure not to acknoeledge that SG &/or 45 is a viable approach is ludicrous at best - norrow minded at worst.

It sounds like you have had some basic firearms training...But the dangourous thing is that you don't know what you don't know...This is what makes your advise dangourous, especially when you come acrross like you have some special credentials...The fact that you aren't aware nor have trained with 1 hand shooting applications is telling...The fact that you can't differentiate between HD tactical teqniques and SWAT-Team techniques is also telling...And then your overlay of arrogance takes the cake.

High-Exposure - is this you? :-) http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://themodulator.org/archives/New_DallasSWAT01_800x600.jpg&imgrefurl=http://themodulator.org/archives/002488.html&h=600&w=800&sz=282&tbnid=6nT0hTYWDycmwM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dswat%2Bteam%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=swat+team&usg=__YmsA4w7l9sQPCfS-oyYxidAvx1o=&docid=acM4OWtxq_iQcM&sa=X&ei=yQWiUc-SHtTG4APb64DABA&sqi=2&ved=0CEYQ9QEwBQ&dur=270

PS High-Exposure...So you are using a cockie cutter approach: SWAT Team uses AR - so I will also. Two had pistol is basic shooting approach - so I will also. You need to learn adaptive style based on context... So, my Friend, I belive it is (you) who: "But you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about." -Just saying.

Obviously, there are many ways to approach this...I do love the semi-personal attacks - that one only gets on the NJGF! They are predictable AND humorous!...Always bizzar, how folks are incapable of stating an opinion without them here... Just some coments: One can use anything they want for HD - matters on context and your level of training. The other person said he would use a 5.56 - that will work, and would be good in case the zombie has body armor. You asked why i said pistol over long gun...I DID stipulate that it depends on your house layout and tactical appoach (but you chose to ignore that in your discssion)....My house is small, not much space to manuver a long-gun...As far as some references - watch the Dynamic SG video (Magpul)...The two Guru's - you will recognize them - choose a Pistol over a SG for HD. Sorry to tell you .45 acp is a proven stopper - of course there is no guarentees - no need to even stipulate that... As far as shooting one hand - again - small house - point blank range - laser/light combo - if you practice this type of shooting it is not a problem. If you educate yourself, you will find that sticking the gun out with two hands is not always the best approcah...Again, all about the context. Your refernce where you are comparing HD to a Seal/Swat team is silly (i could use harsher words but choose not too). HD is you, maybe your wife against the perp...Vs a full team of seals with effectively many eyes and fields of vision...AR/red dot can work, but I am not fond of sticking my eye into a scope at CQB distances (cuts down on field of vision when). -Remember you are not a "team" of eyes. Now, your turn, were is you evidance, and experience, for your opinion? And please, no swat team references - even if you have been on one, are on one now, or wana-be one ;-). That is not an appropriate analogy (see above).

Back at you! Pretty meaningless post you made...Better to state your opinion like an adult.

BTW, contrary to poular belief, a SG may not be better then a pistol (45 acp preferred)...Depends on your house layout and weather you are taking a defensive or offensive tactical approch...If you are going offensive clearing rooms, the zombi can grab your SG/ar barrel as you turn a corner...Much easier to keep posesion of your pistol...So, it depends...A 45 acp in your strong hand and Kabar big-brother knife (ie a machette) in your week hand may be the best approch for room clearing...On the other hand if the purp is charging a defensive position -> 00/SG! -These are the three best tools IMHO.

For home defense - assuming you have time to grab both - A pump shotgun with a 45 auto (1911 is my favorite) as back-up...I shot-stoppers - best CQB tools ever devised (ok, ok, being a little biased here) - but seriously, this is probably the 1 or 2 top comboes for HD...In WW1 trench-warfare, either defending or breaching a trench - time and time again, these were the soilders favorate weopons...There are alot of similiarities btwn HD and trench warefare... An AR carbine with red dot isn't bad either I suppose, and does offer the advantage of precision fire over a SG - but the fastest way to put the bad guy down - especially at CQ-range is 00 and 45 acp, IMHO.

Thanks Vlad!