Combat Auto

Yes, finally we can both agree it was a complete waste of time.

That is an unfortunate false/wrong infernal/assumption which you came up with. I never asserted such a thing. You need to learn how to get the context of the discussion straight in your head. Otherwise your interpretation skills will continue to be very lacking.

YIKES!!!! You still don't get it, it isn't going to fail on distance (that isn't a requirement either way), it is at a significant risk (with rare exceptions) of failing on at least 2 of the 5 precepts of a legal SD shoot. ALL 5 must be met to make it legal...If you don't now what these 5 precepts are I suggest you google for it. They better become second nature to you before you get "out there".

Yea, and they all have justifiable cause (meaning according to them and the SONJ they are in a concentrated group in a high risk of being attacked), you would think at least one of them would have had a long range SD encounter. It just shows how rare it is, hasn't happened even once in NJ in a very threatened group. Why, because it almost always doesn't qualify as a legal self defense shoot. There are very extremely rare exceptions elseward statistically. Sorry Bud, you can't prove your point with this post. Actually, i don't even know what point you are trying to prove anymore. You started by sighting the 45 yard shoot in mall as if this is some statistically significant event that all carry holders need to qualify for (comical), and after a flip-flop or two you wound up saying folks shouldn't have to shoot any qual at all...So in essence you started at one side (You: 45 yards) of the distance proposal I threw out which was (Me: "no more than 10-15 yards") to the other side (You: no test at all). Yea, so in essence given that this is NJ and for the foreseeable future there will be a qualification (meaning your no qaul proposal is a lack of reality), my proposal makes a lot more sense than your 45 yard proposal...If anything you help proved my point -LOL! What a waste of time all around. LOL!

The entire thread is about getting a carry permit (as a non retired LEO) and qualifying, you must lost! We are not writing a detailed book on SD techniques...Of course a Legal SD event can happen after 15 yards (everyone knows that), but you will have a lot of explaining to do especially in NJ...In this context, yes, it is ridiculous to insist on proficiency at 25 yards to get a carry. Sorry to tell you, in this state, as a carry holder that isn't a COP you have a duty to retreat if at all possible...You might want to study the law before you get in trouble out there!!! Forget the Rambo attitude. A legal Civilian SD event at 25 yards is so off the charts rare it makes no sense to require Granny or Grandpa to qualify at that range. You would be stifling their constitutional right to SD. Since you are so set on continued to harp on this because you can't connect the dots of what this thread is about, why don't you show me even 1 event in NJ --- now listen carefully - where a NON cop, non retired cop, carry holder legally shot a perp at 25 yards in NJ. And did it legally? Just one. Try to follow the context of this thread. We are talking about qualifications.

Check your "inferral" skills, I don't know anyone who said such a thing...What I did say, it is reasonable to qualify people up to 30-45 feet max. To which you responded and started this debate, and now have change it to no qual at all. So the entire discussion in moot at this point.

Nobody said that SD "only" happen to 15 Y...The discussion is what should people be expected to qualify at...We all know the statistics on self defense encounters, no one has to repeat them, they are MOSTLY amazingly close. Much closer than 15 yards... So are you going to require everyone to qualify at 50Y when it is an extremely unlikely event. An amazingly extremely unlikely event. If you do you will be helping the Lefty, not too many people are going to be getting their carry permits. In fact you might be giving Murphy a new idea for a law, raise the requirement to 50Y qaul.

Do you honestly believe that everyone who want to get a carry permit for SD needs to be proficient at 40-50 yards with a pistol? It tells me you don't understand the law in NJ or have much knowledge of a SD encounter. I am not telling YOU not to have that skill, I am telling you it is ridiculous that you think everyone with a carry should be forced to have that level of proficiency. You're not even understanding the Constitution with that mind set.

LOL, I was expecting someone to say this...Sorry, we are not being qualified to go on the offense. Some people with carry may want to, but some people may not. It is called self defense with a hand gun. That kid was an absolute hero, but not every has the skills, guts, and mental acuity to do so. Ridiculous to say that is the standard for everyone who wants the basic right to self defense outside the home. You want to train to take out mass shooters, kudos, but don't require Granny to have to do it too.

Apologies Shooter, not sure why the system will not let me post without the above.... Independently, one would assume that the test would be standardized, but the only way that will happen is if NJ had a central bureaucracy running the shoot. We don't want that. The state troopers running it? Meh, not a good idea even if you can get an appointment... They have it set up pretty decently, a qualified instructor runs the shoot. Now here is the problem, in the past, what 90% of these quals, maybe more were aimed at retired leos. Maybe they are justified to require them to meet a higher qual, maybe not, I don't know... But with the Mega Ruling several weeks ago all that changed. Now there will be many non-retired leos looking to qual. I personally do not think it makes sense to ask a person who wants to defend themselves legally to have to prove it at 25 yards. In reality it gives them the wrong impression of a legal self defense shoot. Where is that #? Who knows, i would say 10 yards, 15 Y tops. This is NOT training, train all you want on your own, shoot at 25 y often and 50 y from time to time (that is what I do), but for those who want the right to basic SD outside the home it it is perfectly reasonable to require 30 or 45 feet max. You should see (short distance) standards in some of the free states, they will shock and awe you. And of course there are also many other states with Constitutional Carry. Be careful what you wish for.

To answer your question, ask yourself what advantage if any do you see in taking the "harder" test to get your permit? I don't see any personally...I train as hard as I want independent of the carry test.

Looks pretty straight forward to me. Just have to make sure there wasn't another revision after that...The usual argument comes up (analogues to the lack of knowledge of the NJ laws on HPs - legal to have in home and shoot at range), "well if a cop doesn't know this he will arrest you anyway"...To which the answer is, I can't worry about the legal knowledge of any given cop (I'd never leave home if I did - lol), I'm interested in the actual law.

Thanks, good to know...My military "programming" is happy now :-).

Thanks again, last "dumb" question...Did they let you keep your other guns with you in the shooting booth while you were shooting the qualification, or did they make you store them in another room/area?

Thank you SS, gives me peace of mind.

Are they savvy enough to know that the serial number is on the frame and not the slide/barrel? ...The reason I ask, I have a Walther PPQ in 9mm which after I had it for a while I updated the slide/barrel (perfectly legal without a permit), but both the slide and barrel have a number on it (European manufacture do this) which of course doesn't match the one on the frame of the gun/or my original permit. These numbers on the slide/barrel have nothing to do with the legal serial number of the firearm. (I'll be qualifying at Shooters later this month.)

I'm scheduled there later this month...Is there any shooting from the draw start position? Edit, never mind I noticed you answered another poster on this...thx

It is all sick, these people make crazy laws and they can't even document the laws without a lot of contradictions with what they say a few paragraphs ago...Maybe on purpose...And according to the 2A lawyer 2 posts above, if the dealer is not compliant and we use them, somehow we get penalized...When did it become our job to ensure dealers compliance lol...I think the lawyer needs a set of XXXX and take these Crazies to court. Anyway, no matter what way this BS can be interpreted, it looks like we have at least 12 months to keep buying (as long as they take our fid and D.L. - that is an older law. And keep a record on my purchases in my login (which I am not sure if that was included in the old law or not)...This centralized "electronic recording" right now seems to be a gleam in Lefty eyes with requirements, design, and functionality to be determined - and compliance required in 12 months from now. My opinion only, IANOL, I will buy from dealers who take fid/DL and keep a record of my ammo sales which I can see from my account login...The rest of this BS is btwn the Dealers and the SONJ.

Here is what I found on the NJ legislation site from A1302...I see no mention of having to (proactively) send ammo info sales to Murphy, --- only on request: (key items from below: 1) The records shall be available for inspection at all reasonable times by any law enforcement officer....2) "Every dealer should shall establish a system" ---To me this implies each have a system, doesn't sound like a central database in the heart of Murphy's NJ....3) "within 12 months of the effective date..." C.A. (IANAL) e. Records of sales. Every manufacturer and wholesale dealer shall keep a detailed record of each firearm and all handgun ammunition sold by [him] the manufacturer and dealer. The firearm record shall include the date of sale, the name and address of the purchaser, a description of each firearm and the firearm’s serial number [thereof]. The handgun ammunition record shall be in electronic form and shall contain the date of the transaction; the type, caliber, or gauge of the ammunition; the quantity of ammunition sold; the name and address of the purchaser; and any other information the superintendent shall deem necessary for the proper enforcement of this chapter. The records shall be available for inspection at all reasonable times by any law enforcement officer. Every manufacturer and wholesale dealer shall establish a system for maintaining electronic records pursuant to this subsection within 12 months of the effective date of P.L. , c. (C. ) (pending before the Legislature as this bill). (cf: N.J.S.2C:58-1)

I just spoke to a 2A lawyer a few mins ago asking explicitly about internet ammo buys vs A1302...The best I understood him is if the Ammo Dealer cards you FID/Drivers license AND keeps a retrievable database of your ammo buys you can still buy from them. I didn't "get" from him that they have to proactively send it to Murphy, but only needed to provide it on request. PLEASE Note, I know this is different than what some posted above who said the dealer would need to send it without being asked, so don't take what I am saying as gospel. We need to get more opinions on this one hopefully from 2A lawyers. From what I've seen most internet dealers do require fids/license and keep a history of our orders (which you can usually pull up in your account). I (obviously) DOUBT any of them send it to NJ proactively at this time - so lets hope that is not needed, some might say screw you folks in NJ buy your ammo elsewhere. The Lawyer also told me - and this is shocking to a degree - that last time they passed a bill about ammo in NJ, Murphy actually had agents placing ammo orders from NJ to test many internet dealers. If they were not compliant with the new law (at that time) they would be threatened with a CRIMINAL charge requiring them to come to NJ for trial (OR) they can pay an aprox. $86,000 fine AND rat-out the gun owners in NJ who placed real orders and accepted ammo who would then be placed on some Shit List in nics or something...If the ammo dealer did all this it becomes a civil charge...In essence we would be held responsible for the dealers non-compliance. WTF!!! This is mind boggling stuff! Go out and talk to a 2A lawyer to get more opinions (especially the proactive sending of orders to Murphy) and report back - Please. C.A.

The actual application says 1.5 squared. I can go either way, just wondering why the separate instructions would override what the actual application with your signature on it is saying?

Thanks for the heads up!!! Chezze, I've been thinking 2X2...Nappen put out an instruction on how to get a CCW and he said "passport" size...The NJST site also has instructions that say "passport" size....YET, the ACTUAL application says 1.5X1.5...Go figure!

I found this on line --- seems to be the real-deal...Upload a pic and they will mail you pass-port quality prints (for a fee of course, we are not Communists ;-)). https://www.persofoto.com/#fussnoten

Great tips - thanks!

So on the GFH website, at 7 yards they show 24 rounds will be shot. They also show 2 mags required minimum, and 3 mags ideal...Do you think the 24 rounds is segmented so that folks showing up with only 2 mags can reload a mag to finish?