I was talking to one of my apprentices tonight who is in the reserves and he is going through training now because the national guard plan on taking over Camden in April. He going on full active duty after he is done homeland security training. Said they are gonna be patrolling in bullet proof hummers. It's crazy it's come to this. They are trying the state police now but it isn't looking like its enough. Only thing that sucks for him is his apprenticeship is getting delayed a year when he goes.

I don't see this ending well. Some national guardsmen (and *women) will get attacked..... someone will get shot... it could escalate up to mass rioting...

I could walk to Camden if I really wanted too. If it's really that bad its time to light a fire under my butt for getting my FID/PPP... scheduled my fingerprinting about 10 minutes ago.

 

I do find it hard to beleive that they would really deploy the Gaurd to Camden. No offense to the Guard, but military organizations involved in civilian policing generally does not end well.

I think we should not only be concerned that "this is what it's come to." I live about 15 minutes from Camden, hell, I live two blocks from the White Horse Pike, just make a left there, drive for a few minutes, and I'm there. I understand why they're doing this, or at least, I believe I do. With the cutbacks in the police force there, they can't effectively police Camden. Instead of just having them sit around, it would make sense to have the NG patrol around there. However, it's rather worrying to me that we're having the military police ANY place in America. Isn't that sort of against our founding principles? Maybe it's just me being tired that's making me think this, but I'm pretty sure our military isn't supposed to be our police.

But... under what orders can the military take over a town?

 

Even though Camden needs to be cleaned up... this seriously scares me of military patrolling our streets.

I wonder when was the last time this happened and how did it turn out?

This was done in New Orleans, not only in the immediate aftermath of Katrina, but again some time later, as NOPD was severely understaffed after Katrina for a number of reasons. When I was there in Feb 07 right after Mardi Gras, the LA NG was around, patrolling WITH the NOPD, from what I saw. If this actually happens, remember that the National Guard is a State organization first, regardless of how they have been used the last couple years for Iraq & whatnot. NJSP has also been pulled into Camden before (Whitman frisking suspect picture, who could forget that?) so this may just be a contingency, or your friend is becoming an MP Lite, which is what happened to 3/112 FA when they were sent to Iraq.

But... under what orders can the military take over a town?

 

Even though Camden needs to be cleaned up... this seriously scares me of military patrolling our streets.

 

 

He is referring to the National Guard not big army. National Guardsmen can be activated and used for any state matter upon the request of the Governor.

 

 

Think of the past hurricanes and blizzards. Who did you see? National Guardsmen.

Think of the past hurricanes and blizzards. Who did you see? National Guardsmen.

yes, they can be there for security, but can they police?

I doubt the NJNG, IF---biiig IF---they actually do go into Camden will be running operations & arresting/charging people on their own. I dunno if the LA NG unit I saw was MP, could/would run on their own, were LE in real life, or just some guys providing presence to intimidate would-be crooks. If and when that happens, it seems more likely to be something to dramatize how bad things are there and to make a political point. e.g. regional PDs/more aid to Camden to supposedly rehire cops/embarrass one or the other of Sweeney or Christie.

or the young man who told you the story if full of it.

How does this figure in? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

 

Posse Comitatus...

The Posse Comitatus Act applies only if the Guard is activated and in federal service. If it is activate by the Governor it is not subject to federal restritctions as it is a state militia, not an army.

How does this figure in? http://en.wikipedia....e_Comitatus_Act

 

Posse Comitatus...

 

I guess you didn't pay attention to the NDAA which has provisions reversing Posse Comitatus. Also, it only applied to the Army and Airforce not the Guard (or oddly the Navy and marines).

 

http://www.courierpostonline.com/article/20111207/NEWS01/312070030/Camden-We-need-National-Guard-fight-crime

 

I guess they are getting what they ask for

 

 

 

Also besides having 99 police laid off the police who still have their job usualy let crime rise to get their fellow officers rehired..

This is not COP bashing!

 

Just help me out here... When I was a kid (watching Noah load the Ark)...

 

There were armed "Special COPs" And my understanding is "Armed Specials" were eliminated because of the complaints buy the union.

 

Can somebody clarify this?

 

Armed "Specials" would certainly help suppliment LE cuts in cities in fiscal crisis.

 

http://www.courierpostonline.com/article/20111207/NEWS01/312070030/Camden-We-need-National-Guard-fight-crime

 

I guess they are getting what they ask for

 

wow. I thought for sure this would turn out to be a rumor. Jeez. I wonder if that military presence will make Camden residents feel better or worse?

The Posse Comitatus Act applies only if the Guard is activated and in federal service. If it is activate by the Governor it is not subject to federal restritctions as it is a state militia, not an army.

 

And don't forget ...

 

THIS IS THE GLORIOUS PEOPLES REPUBLIK OF NEW JERSEYSTAN

 

not America

While I agree that something needs to be done in that hellhole this is not the answer. The guard doesn't have arrest powers,they don't know the paperwork and probably aren't that familiar with the area. Either way they are going to ave to call police to make and process the arrest. What would be better is to hire the rest of the cops back and use the guard to enforce a curfew. Anybody out after curfew roaming around gets locked up. Those that roam the streets after hours are the ones causing problems. You will find warrants, weapons and drugs with those stops therefore reducing the number of unwanteds on the streets

While I agree that something needs to be done in that hellhole this is not the answer. The guard doesn't have arrest powers,they don't know the paperwork and probably aren't that familiar with the area. Either way they are going to ave to call police to make and process the arrest. What would be better is to hire the rest of the cops back and use the guard to enforce a curfew. Anybody out after curfew roaming around gets locked up. Those that roam the streets after hours are the ones causing problems. You will find warrants, weapons and drugs with those stops therefore reducing the number of unwanteds on the streets

 

Sooo basically Martial Law in Camden?

^ so were back to 1984 and we the "free" people need a cerfew?

 

EDIT: that was intedned to answer BLF

Yup. A place that bad warrants it. Only temporary until order is restored. I know this opinion won't go over well but that place is completely out of control and only declining rapidly.

I disagree, and the word "temporary" has been used many times in the past to circumvent the laws that a goverment doesn't feel it should have to deal with on a permident basis.

People who cant act in accordance with civilized society shouldn't be allowed in it. I bet most people in that town would support a curfew. It's similar to the " broken window theory" you enforce smaller quality of life crimes and it leads to a reduction in larger crimes.

Yup. A place that bad warrants it. Only temporary until order is restored. I know this opinion won't go over well but that place is completely out of control and only declining rapidly.

 

"order is restored," seems like it is misapplied here. It isn't a flood or some other natural disaster. It is criminals being criminals. I am not sure how any temprary measure will stop that unless it is a stopgap until they hire more cops.

 

Furthmore, what bugs me about this is this mayor is thinking that the military can stop the violence.

Is she expecting that the Guard will be shooting back? If so, is she fully prepared for that mess?

The NG as a show of strength in a US city whithout loaded firearms is still just as silly as sending Marines into the Middle East without bullets, just without suicide bombers.

Someone (the State?, the Feds?) need to round up all the few remaining good, hard working people, move them to a temporary safe-zone, then level the entire city and start over. It's really the only way things will change there. The town I live in is neighboring Camden City and our crime rates have increased 10-fold over the last several years. Partially, because of the crime moving south into my town, but mostly because of these low-lives moving into town. The majority of people in Camden are like a cancer who are slowly spreading into the neighboring cities, causing destruction and havoc. This needs to stop quickly and the cancer needs to be killed. Leveling that city and starting over is the only answer as far as I'm concerned.

 

It's been proven time and time again, that simply throwing money at this diseased city is not the answer. Maybe total annihilation is.

Really only a stopgap until they have enough police presence to deal with the issue. To keep it from maybe getting so far out of hand

Here is the problem. When they had all their cops Camden was still one of the most dangerous cities in America so that wasn't working. I'm not for the military patrolling our streets. It I think in Camden it's the only option at this point. That city is one step away from becoming Somalia.

However, it's rather worrying to me that we're having the military police ANY place in America. Isn't that sort of against our founding principles? Maybe it's just me being tired that's making me think this, but I'm pretty sure our military isn't supposed to be our police.

 

+1

 

In addition to not liking the use of military forces as police I also wonder if it's in the best interest of the guard members. Are they trained for this type of work? Are they mentally prepared to be aggressive towards Americans? Even if said Americans are behaving badly? I'm sure none of them "signed up" with this type of work in mind.

 

Also, if they did tours in Iraq/Afghanistan they could possibly still be dealing with effects of being in a war zone. Do we want someone patrolling our streets who could possibly have a heightened kill or be killed response mechanism due to PTSD, etc?

 

Camden laid those cops off to save money. Now the NG goes in which costs us all. What's to stop all the other **** towns around the state from pulling the same stunt? We already subsidize all the Abott schools with our tax dollars.