And what did the criminal organizations do when Prohibition ended? It's not like they said "oh, theres no money in bootlegging now. I guess we'll go get jobs."

 

THIS!

 

Some went back to doing what they were doing before the Prohibition (gambling, racketeering, etc) but most bootleggers either got busted, killed or went "legit".

 

the point is not necessarily running out and getting a job.. the point is devaluing that which fuels their empires...how can you afford cars.. drug homes.. employment of runners.. thugs.. if that which you sell has been devalued to almost nothing... look in history.. the drug "war" is something we created... and this "war" is a costly violent mess.. that does nothing to actually stop drug use.. which in itself (the use) is a social rather than criminal problem.. we waste space in jails locking up people who choose to abuse drugs.. it is a ridiculous burden on society all the way around..

 

I agree with most of your points but fear that in NJ if pot was legal it would be extremely expensive (because that's how we do) and the black market would likely still exist.

 

That raises an interesting question for gun ownership though. If drugs are legalized can a drug user qualify for ownership of a firearm? Would there be a distinction between user and abuser?

 

of course you could own guns.. alcohol is a legal altering substance.. and you can "have a few beers" and still be a legal gun owner..

I think that a recreational drug user would still be able to qualify for a firearm the same way that a recreational drinker still does. I've never smoked marijuana, but I usually have a glass of wine with dinner, a beer with my steak, or some bourbon with my cigar. That doesn't make me an alcoholic. Although I think smoking marijuana as an adult is immature and foolish, I think that there is a difference between a guy who has a joint with his wife after the kids are in bed and a guy who is living in the gutter with a needle in his arm.

 

with all due respect.. can I ask why.. I do not smoke marijuana.. but I see NO distinction between "having a joint with your wife" and "having some wine with dinner" with the exception of one being legal.. and one not being legal... I am just curious what causes the distinction between your actions and those which you view as childish..

I don't know. Cigarettes are legal and heavily taxed, but when was the last time you heard of someone buying black market cigarettes? I suppose someone could drive down to North Carolina, fill up their car with cartons, and sell them in NJ, but is the reward worth the risk? I think the same thing would happen with soft drugs if they were legalized.

 

I think that a recreational drug user would still be able to qualify for a firearm the same way that a recreational drinker still does. I've never smoked marijuana, but I usually have a glass of wine with dinner, a beer with my steak, or some bourbon with my cigar. That doesn't make me an alcoholic. Although I think smoking marijuana as an adult is immature and foolish, I think that there is a difference between a guy who has a joint with his wife after the kids are in bed and a guy who is living in the gutter with a needle in his arm.

 

The black market for cigarettes is HUGE. Especially in NYC and boroughs, estimated to be over a billion dollar industry. And yes, it pretty much goes like you said, huge truck worth coming up from NC or some such place and sold to bodega owners, etc.

 

If you say immature and foolish because smoking anything in general is bad for your lungs, I somewhat agree. How about a "special" brownie for dessert?

The black market for cigarettes is HUGE. Especially in NYC and boroughs, estimated to be over a billion dollar industry. And yes, it pretty much goes like you said, huge truck worth coming up from NC or some such place and sold to bodega owners, etc.

 

do these cigarette trucks get armed by individual carrying fully automatic weapons who shoot it out on the street corners taking the lives of innocent people.. because THAT is really the point..

Good chance the guys are armed that have the truck. They distribute out to their dealers aka corner stores

do these cigarette trucks get armed by individual carrying fully automatic weapons who shoot it out on the street corners taking the lives of innocent people.. because THAT is really the point..

 

No, I think these guys are all about the concrete shoes!

with all due respect.. can I ask why.. I do not smoke marijuana.. but I see NO distinction between "having a joint with your wife" and "having some wine with dinner" with the exception of one being legal.. and one not being legal... I am just curious what causes the distinction between your actions and those which you view as childish..

 

My own bias, I guess. I personally don't like ceding control, to the point where I didn't even take a Valium that was prescribed to be before some surgery had once. I just dealt with the anxiety and the pain without drugs. Maybe it's stoicism?

 

I drink, but because I like the taste of wine, or beer or bourbon. I don't like getting drunk.

 

Unfortunately, I'm running up against a wall with my knowledge of how marijuana effects people. I think that there are degrees of drinking. A couple of drinks over a couple of hours don't make you drunk. But I don't think that are degrees of being high on marijuana. I don't know. I've always assumed that once your start smoking marijuana, you are high. There is no gradual incline like with alcohol. I may be wrong, but I've never smoked it, and I've never really had a conversation with anyone who explained to me how Marijuana works.

 

I suppose its not so bad when a college student with no responsibility does it, but when I hear my friends and neighbors talk about sequestering themselves in the sunroom or garage while their children are upstairs so they can enter an altered state of consciousness, it just rubs me the wrong way. It seems childish.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but It's a very hard bias for me to overcome.

My own bias, I guess. I personally don't like ceding control, to the point where I didn't even take a Valium that was prescribed to be before some surgery had once. I just dealt with the anxiety and the pain without drugs. Maybe it's stoicism?

...

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but It's a very hard bias for me to overcome.

 

 

Maybe you just don't like to break the law?

I have a question .. How much is Camden worth? I don't have a good way to get a figure of the rough real estate worth of the town, but I'm wondering can it be bought, wholesale or piecemeal? In this age of low real estate prices, compounded by the diminished value of property in an area like Camden, I'm thinking the cost of deploying the National Guard, combined with state subsidies, etc, etc, might actually be better spent just having the state buy the whole place one piece at time. Let whatever leases are ongoing end and don't renew them. In a couple of years the place is vacant and can be demolished at leisure and added the whole open space project.

 

If you do it right, there is no need for violence, there is one or more year draw down in population to give folks time to find new dwellings, allows property owners to actually get out from unsellable property and reinvest they money elsewhere, and in the long term solves the problem. It's not like you can save the town at this point, it needs new infrastructure, new buildings, new roads and you can't do that piecemeal when no one wants to live there and if they do it is because they don't have a better choice or the money to fix up their own place.

 

Thats one use for my tax money I wouldn't mind. It would take money and re-inject into the economy and housing market by unlocking it from unusable property and remove a long term liability of paying for Camden's problems. In the long term it is both cheaper and better for every one involved, and I do mean everyone. The current residents will have a better chance of elevating their current status if they are not locked in a cycle of poverty and violence imposed by their location, their children would have a better chance an education in schools which are more the just juvenile holding pens, and less chance to choose a life of crime if they see something else other then crime whenever from morning to night.

 

A partial implementation of this was done in New Brunswick as J&J invested quite a bit of money and various efforts were made to level and rebuild the worst parts of town. I'm not saying New Brunswick is where I'd choose to live but it is a much better town then it was 15 years ago.

I'm not saying New Brunswick is where I'd choose to live but it is a much better town then it was 15 years ago.

 

NB along with J&J's help has done a great deal to beautify NB. However, all the poor and all the criminals didn't just pack up and leave. They are just crunched into much smaller pockets around the city. Folks get stabbed on a regular basis and shooting's aren't abnormal. Drugs are all over the place. The gang violence is just as bad as it ever was in the past.

 

Also, very few of the jobs that J&J brought to NB were filled by the working class residents of NB.

As I said NB is not a what I'd call a flourishing safe or beautiful city, but I used to live there 15 years an I still spend some time in the town now and then and it is a different place. I'm sure there is still quite a bit of a crime and such but there sure seem to be a lot less of it and there seem to be a lot more place people can walk without a 50/50 chance of being robbed.

Camden can not be bought... I worked a real estate deal with a group out of NC, Cherokee Investment Partners, that had a plan to redevelop north Camden with over 5,000 new homes and a shopping center. They were willing to build or rehabb (more costly mind you) approx 500 low income housing units across the city as well. The local short sighted, corrupt and bigoted town powers stonewalled and delayed plans, made ridiculous demands and finally destroyed a $200 million deal and almost destroyed the investment company from within, and this is a company that has over 500 prop across the world and over 2 bill in assets available. Thier reps were so disgusted with the amatuerish behavior of the Camden officials that they willingly left over $1mill in plans/legal/fees etc etc and just walked away, leaving Camden holding their collective $%cks.

 

I sometimes feel so sad for the residents of Camden, but then I remember those meeting and the contempt I feel for the people they put in office and I dont any longer. But I do think the new leadership is improving, but I am biased.

I do live in one of the "bad" sections of New Brunswick....... but I live in a gated condo community so it's a bit safer. That being said - there are times when I still do want to carry even in my own neighborhood cuz of hoodlums from the projects jumping the fence, etc.

There is no such thing as a temporary intervention. This is the test to see how martial law goes over in ghettos. Thats where they will start. Under the auspices of 'safety' is why kittle kids get groped at the airport by TSA agents. Keep in mind that we no longer have 6th amendment rights, and can be relegated to a military tribunal instead of jury of peers.

The only thing the national guard needs to do in NJ is go around and arrest the politicinans who are ruining this state and nation. THe sad part is everyday we allow them to use our money and to ruin us, and be totally open about it. I have never seen anything like it! They tell us we are getting screwed, and we all look at them and say 'Yeah, were getting screwed' and we carry on! America is fast moving in a very scary direction. Stack up and stay sharp.

...America is fast moving in a very scary direction. Stack up and stay sharp.

 

Truer words were never spoken.

In reality, we are beyond the point of no return already, I'm afraid.

I don't know. Cigarettes are legal and heavily taxed, but when was the last time you heard of someone buying black market cigarettes?

 

http://www.capemaycountyherald.com/article/crime/78434-wildwood+man+busted+untaxed+smokes

 

Just figured I'd throw that in there. I got a chuckle out of it.

I do live in one of the "bad" sections of New Brunswick....... but I live in a gated condo community so it's a bit safer. That being said - there are times when I still do want to carry even in my own neighborhood cuz of hoodlums from the projects jumping the fence, etc.

 

Commercial Avenue still the "nice" place it used to be? I went to Rutgers in the mid-80's and knew where to avoid being after sunset. Heck, some places were just as bad during the day!

If you do it right, there is no need for violence, there is one or more year draw down in population to give folks time to find new dwellings

Only problem is that these are CRIMINALS we are talking about. They don't give a crap if they own the piece of property they live in, or not. Hell if the state starts buying the property, the people living there will act like it's a free meal, and live there until someone comes along and TAKES them out of the house. It's not like they'll just say "Well sh*t, the state bought the property, time to move to Cherry Hill." And who's going to patrol the empty area to make sure that people aren't living illegally in the state owned houses? Sounds like a job for the National Guard, or overtime for police that should be patrolling populated areas. But we can't fund the National Guard or overtime for police, because we just used that money to buy the property.

I like the idea of purchasing the land. Leveling what is there so no one can squat there. Then when a lot of the trash is gone sell the land to developers and start rebuilding. You are buying the property at a much lower price and can sell it for more.

The problem isn't Camden. The problem is the CRIMINALS living in Camden. Get rid of Camden, and the criminals will go somewhere else and continue to cause trouble. Re-develop Camden, and they will move back into Camden. Tearing down Camden and redeveloping it is a useless waste of money. The cheapest, and easiest way to deflate Camden was mentioned above....find a way to reasonably legalize the action.

Haha, seriously, thanks Vic for saying that-- I was going to say the same exact thing. You displace the people who cause trouble, and it's not like the problem goes magically away. Look at the rise of crime after Katrina in the other cities where displaced residents went.

 

The solution is reaching out to the community, and not necessarily stomping them with every opportunity. Yes, I agree with the principle that there have been to be levels of enforcement, however, that's just band-aiding a festering wound (and cutting it out, for the reasons above, makes no sense). Like in OIF/OEF/GWOT, the "hearts and minds" approach is the answer, IMO. Reaching out to the communtiy and individuals is the key, though not easy and would take quite a bit of time. However, a shift in ideals from the core is what would drive people to demand a better place to live-- and actively participate in making it so. It's not a big kumbaya-- not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it requires a shift in ideals from the inside, and not some external force. Is it possible? Yes. It has happened repeatedly throughout the world... just a matter of application meeting theory (and with our politicians, it's no surprise it seems unfeasible).

my scope of experience is small.. but in every town where I saw people get involved.. where I saw people try to give back something nice.. where I saw an attempt to build a sense of pride.. it was quickly smashed back to the ground by the scum..

 

you can't fix a cocky 20 year old crack dealer who is driving around a car that cost more than I will make this year.. while carrying a loaded gun ready to slay anyone in his path...

he is not interested in your community growth or pride..

 

I saw it in Atlantic City.. they put in nice new town homes.. build up a lot of landscaping.. little park areas.. the town homes now have graffiti and the parks are where people sell drugs.. same thing in Vineland.. same thing in Egg Harbor City.. and those places are a fraction as bad as Camden is..

 

I am not sure what the answer is.. but I am pretty sure it starts with eliminating the problem.. but that won't even work unless we start to lock people up for extended periods of time..

incarceration is no good when it is so short that all it does is build contacts in jail and "street cred" back home.. like I said.. not familiar with Camden.. but I know in AC there are kids half my age that would not hesitate to stick a loaded gun in your face in broad daylight...

 

I am not sure a bunch of armored up automatic weapon toting national guardsmen are not the answer.. sometimes force can only understand greater force.... as in yeah.. you might be a bad a**.. with your handgun.. and tough attitude.. but I am that much more bad a** with my M4 and armored truck with 50 cal mounted on the roof.. sit down and shut up.. as questionable as that is to all of you.. it is the governments job to preserve its citizens safety.. they are not at this time.. we are not talking bomber fly overs... we are talking national guard attempting to aid in the restoration of order.. and I am not sure I even have an issue with that? compared to the alternative that is.. but sentence these scumbags to the max.. catch them and KEEP them off the street for a while.. that will give those that DO want a change a chance.. a chance to grow without fear of being knocked back down..

Well, if killing, bombing, the military, and money won't solve the problem, what will?

 

...

 

I think the only way that places like Camden will ever get better is the address the cause of the problems, and, IMHO, the cause of the problems isn't drugs or guns or even poverty.

 

The cause of the problems in these places is that for some reason kids there grow up thinking that the gang lifestyle is not only acceptable, but something to be glorified. They think so little of life that "disrespecting" someone is enough to get you killed. They're willing to kill over a few hundred/thousand dollars, willing to kill because you're in the "wrong" neighborhood. And even more disturbing as we've seen recently with the flash mobs, willing to kill or maim for "fun."

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not a sheep. I believe that if I were ever in a situation where I had to take a life in defense of my own or of another I would not hesitate. However, I simply cannot understand how one can be so eager to harm his brothers and sisters...

 

Maybe it's because I grew up in a middle class family in suburban New Jersey, maybe it's because I grew up in a family with both parents and brothers and sisters who cared about me. Regardless of the reason, I don't understand how people can think the gang lifestyle is acceptable, and I don't think I ever will.

 

While drugs, illegal gambling, prostitution, and the poverty found in Camden are certainly all factors that contribute to the violence, I don't believe that simply removing the poverty, legalizing drugs, gambling, and prostitution are going to fix it. The problem is that the people who commit these acts believe, for whatever reason, that they are acceptable behaviors. Violent cities won't be fixed in a day, or a year, or a decade. It will take generations to teach the kids that these behaviors are unacceptable, and frankly, I don't even know where to begin at that.

I think the only way that places like Camden will ever get better is the address the cause of the problems, and, IMHO, the cause of the problems isn't drugs or guns or even poverty.

 

The cause of the problems in these places is that for some reason kids there grow up thinking that the gang lifestyle is not only acceptable, but something to be glorified. They think so little of life that "disrespecting" someone is enough to get you killed. They're willing to kill over a few hundred/thousand dollars, willing to kill because you're in the "wrong" neighborhood. And even more disturbing as we've seen recently with the flash mobs, willing to kill or maim for "fun."

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not a sheep. I believe that if I were ever in a situation where I had to take a life in defense of my own or of another I would not hesitate. However, I simply cannot understand how one can be so eager to harm his brothers and sisters...

 

Maybe it's because I grew up in a middle class family in suburban New Jersey, maybe it's because I grew up in a family with both parents and brothers and sisters who cared about me. Regardless of the reason, I don't understand how people can think the gang lifestyle is acceptable, and I don't think I ever will.

 

While drugs, illegal gambling, prostitution, and the poverty found in Camden are certainly all factors that contribute to the violence, I don't believe that simply removing the poverty, legalizing drugs, gambling, and prostitution are going to fix it. The problem is that the people who commit these acts believe, for whatever reason, that they are acceptable behaviors. Violent cities won't be fixed in a day, or a year, or a decade. It will take generations to teach the kids that these behaviors are unacceptable, and frankly, I don't even know where to begin at that.

 

people grow up in the projects with nothing..

kids look around at home.. drugged up mom.. no dad.. no food.. no nothing..

they see the drug dealer with piles of money.. and all the things they do not have..

they immediately make the connection that drugs and money equate to the fastest road to all the things they do not have..

they see that the drug dealer is "tough" and "feared" so it is immediately imperative to prove they are the same..

they are eager to run with gangs because it removes the helpless loveless feeling they experience at home..

 

the solutions are to remove that power..

demonize the drug dealer... remove him from the equation.. lock him up indefinitely.. increase penalties..

 

and OR

 

legalize drugs.. doing so makes the drug dealer powerless.. I know it seems like an absurd proposition.. but the street value of a drug is largely determined by the extensive risk one takes being involved in that business... would a kid from the slums put his life on the line shooting it out with the dealer across the street for a bunch of bags of powder that are "worth" half a million.. yeah.. I bet.. would they take the same risk if those same bags of powder were worth 500 dollars.. unlikely..

 

while drug legalization seems extreme... fine... decriminalize drugs..... stop locking people up for simple possession and increase penalties for dealing so dramatically that it is no longer appealing.. take EVERY person found with simple possession and give them NO criminal charge.. and a $500 fine.. call it a day.. make dealing an automatic 20 year offense MINIMUM..

 

our drug laws are stupid.. and illogical.. and as long as they remain as such.. nothing will improve.. we allow the scum to get out too fast.. that there is no real impact..

Well, if killing, bombing, the military, and money won't solve the problem, what will?

 

...

 

 

Personally I think Ra's Al Ghul would do a better job. lol

The problem isn't Camden. The problem is the CRIMINALS living in Camden. Get rid of Camden, and the criminals will go somewhere else and continue to cause trouble. Re-develop Camden, and they will move back into Camden. Tearing down Camden and redeveloping it is a useless waste of money. The cheapest, and easiest way to deflate Camden was mentioned above....find a way to reasonably legalize the action.

 

Thank you Vic, was wondering why people were thinking it's the properties and not the scumbags that are the problem. Level it or price them out of the town they just more someplace else.

Haha, seriously, thanks Vic for saying that-- I was going to say the same exact thing. You displace the people who cause trouble, and it's not like the problem goes magically away. Look at the rise of crime after Katrina in the other cities where displaced residents went.

 

 

You should hear all my friends in Houston, they want the people in New Orleans to come over and take back the folks that came to TX and never left.

There are all always going to be criminals. The problem is that right now there are a lot of them concentrated in one small area making it difficult to police. Spread those criminal over a larger area and local police would have a better chance of dealing with them piece meal. I live in a town of 50k people with a police force of less then 100 people including everyone from the chief to the dispatchers to the beat cops. I think we murder every other year? That is a lot easier to work on then having 50.

Who ever suggested displacing the criminals while leveling Camden ? As was said, they'd only come back. What needs to be done (and yes, I know it's a stretch and will never be done) is total annihilation of the criminals and yes, I am talking about taking appropriate measures to ensure they cease to exist. Do that by whatever means necessary. I've mentioned it once before, but I love the "Escape from New York" model of handling criminals. That would definitely work and could be a great deterrent. Only problem is these bleeding-heart, protect human-life idiots. They would see it as "cruel and unusual punishment".