Someone (the State?, the Feds?) need to round up all the few remaining good, hard working people, move them to a temporary safe-zone, then level the entire city and start over. It's really the only way things will change there. The town I live in is neighboring Camden City and our crime rates have increased 10-fold over the last several years. Partially, because of the crime moving south into my town, but mostly because of these low-lives moving into town. The majority of people in Camden are like a cancer who are slowly spreading into the neighboring cities, causing destruction and havoc. This needs to stop quickly and the cancer needs to be killed. Leveling that city and starting over is the only answer as far as I'm concerned.

 

It's been proven time and time again, that simply throwing money at this diseased city is not the answer. Maybe total annihilation is.

 

Fence the city- doable

Provide safe exit for the Citizens

And lay seige to the city.

 

When there are no ifrared images

Reopen the city.

The National Guard is not going to Camden. And there are three reasons why.

 

The 50th IBTC, has two infantry battalions, and RSTA (calvary) battalion and and artillery battalion. They also have one MP company. These would be the people most likely to perform service in Camden.

 

While I don't know much about military police, I know that one company of Infantrymen is about 120 soldiers composed of 3 platoons of about 30-40 men and one headquarters platoon. I estimate that the City of Camden would need about one company of soldiers to assist the police which would mean one platoon on duty for 12 hours a day, with one additional platoon available for Quick Reaction Force duty.

 

By NJ law, any NJ National Guard soldier unit that is activated must get paid at least $100 per day. This happened after September 11th when the National Guard is was guarding nuke plants, bridges and tunnels. Odds are that companies would be activated for 29 day stretches because once a National Guard soldier is on duty for 30 or more days, the state is required to provide health insurance.

 

So you have 120 men, each getting paid at least $100 per day. That means that the state needs to find at least $12000 dollars per day, and quite possibly more because a Sergeant or Lieutenant gets paid more than a private . Over 29 days, that adds up to $348,000 just in salary.

 

Now let's add in food. Let's take a base rate of $6.00 per meal for a vendor contracted meal. 6x3 meals per day is $18.00 per soldier. Multiply that times 120 and you get $2160 per day to feed one company of soldiers. Multiply that times 29 days and you get $62,640.

 

So now we're up to $410,640 per month, and we haven't paid for a drop of diesel fuel for the hummers yet. The State of New Jersey is broke. They don't have an extra $500,000 per month to protect Camden with troops.

 

So that's the first reason. You could also, theoretically add in the cost to the local economy when you pull people out of productive, high paying jobs. I write computer software. I make six figures and pay 6.47% of my wages in state taxes. The state would lose out on all of the taxable high-paying income that soldiers would be making if they were doing their normal jobs - which tend to pay more than the military. Now add in the fact that many National Guardsmen are government employees (police/fire/teachers/government workers) who will be double dipping - but that takes some math and I don't have a lot of time here.

 

Now here's the second: even if that money were available, the State Police would go absolutely ape. The State Police has a union, the National Guard does not. If a money bomb of $410,640 per month were suddenly dropped on Camden, and it was given to the National Guard, the State Police would have a conniption since that money could theoretically go to their overtime. Who do you think will win that battle?

 

Third: If the National Guard were really let out into the streets of Camden, their Rules of Engagement would be so strict that they would have no function other than look pretty in green. Odds are that they would be given 10 rounds of ammunition per man, and they would not be allowed to patrol with magazines in their weapons. How do I know this? Because that was the ROE in Katrina. The politicians in this state do not want National Guardsmen walking around our streets with assault rifles. Either the Guardsmen would get killed because he couldn't load his weapon fast enough, or he would be forced to kill, which would result in investigations and news articles.

 

Trust me, the National Guard is not going to Camden.

So you think not having enough money has ever stopped NJ from spending more?

Here is the problem. When they had all their cops Camden was still one of the most dangerous cities in America so that wasn't working. I'm not for the military patrolling our streets. It I think in Camden it's the only option at this point. That city is one step away from becoming Somalia.

 

 

Camden<>Somaalia, Camden<>Somaalia

 

Just trying to make the parallel.....

+1

 

In addition to not liking the use of military forces as police I also wonder if it's in the best interest of the guard members. Are they trained for this type of work? Are they mentally prepared to be aggressive towards Americans? Even if said Americans are behaving badly? I'm sure none of them "signed up" with this type of work in mind.

 

Also, if they did tours in Iraq/Afghanistan they could possibly still be dealing with effects of being in a war zone. Do we want someone patrolling our streets who could possibly have a heightened kill or be killed response mechanism due to PTSD, etc?

 

Camden laid those cops off to save money. Now the NG goes in which costs us all. What's to stop all the other **** towns around the state from pulling the same stunt? We already subsidize all the Abott schools with our tax dollars.

 

And what makes you think the NG will be safer in Camden?

I meant that in the sense that the town is controlled by armed criminals and dealers in comparison to pirates and militants. LEO's have lost control of Camden already. Vacant houses everywhere, crime everywhere. It's a **** hole. I'm for whiping it out but that won't happen. I'm friends with a cop in mt ephraim and they have a major problem with Camden's over flow. My other friend who is a Woodbury cop is saying the same thing. Paulsboro had a shooting/murder a couple weeks ago. Guy was from Camden. The crime is over flowing and something has to be done.

 

As far as for financial reasons I would say the ng is cheaper then trooper or local pd overtime. Christie doesn't care what unions want.

I C Shawn...

 

BTW Christie is a pussy when it comes to police unions. He only attacks the weak. Christie is not genuine.

 

I'd go on but don't want to hijack.

And what makes you think the NG will be safer in Camden?

 

Not sure if you are serious but in case you are...

 

In Iraq and Afghanistan there are people whose sole mission is to kill our troops. Laying IEDs, snipers, and full on assault. In Camden you have a bunch of criminals and thugs whose primary goal is probably dealing drugs, stealing, etc. Murder and such happens to be a by product of those types of activity. My guess is that, if possible, *most* criminals in Camden would try to avoid confrontation with a well armed, well trained, U.S. soldier. The same cannot be said for Jihadists in Iraq who seek to initiate contact and harm our troops. That's just my take on the situation.

Posse Comitatus and Insurrection Act have no bearing with NG as they only apply to active duty components. These are applicable by executive order, meaning any barred component can be allowed to perform duties within US borders if given explicit permission via EO's. In a sense, PC and Insurrection have no real bearing except that it exists for the sake of existing, but is otherwise a nuisance.

 

In this case though, I don't see it as realistic, or useful. The issue is not with the rate of crimes, but with the lack of outreach to those who are committing crimes. Sure, muscling the problem can solve a very small amount of temporary issues, but it will not solve squat in the long run. There is a reason why "hearts and minds" was pushed so hard in OIF and OEF-- only reason why US forces ever found any type of victory in those regions.

I live near enough to Camden to be concerned. One of the issues is that there is no large news outlet coming out of camden, only the crap local Courier Post carries Camden news regularly. With more publicity maybe more attention would be drawn to the issues.

 

I whole heartedly agree with NASCAR.. but that solution is just not feasible. Having worked with NG in New Orleans post Katrina I feel that this solution is not feasible also. In planning what is prob going to happen are observation posts will be setup and patrols will use multi vehicles with at least one Camden PD officer on board so arrests can be made. The issue and I saw this in NO is that the NG will be very intimidating to the local thugs, and these guys aint the sharpest tools in the workshed, so they will take that fear and call it "disrespect" and start shooting. This could go on for a long time, basically small civil war, thugs versus Law and Order. Side effect? Innocent people will be shot and some will be killed, it is inevitable. Some people predict a race war coming... this might look like one, but it will be based on lawful behavior versus criminals.

 

90% of the people in Camden are hardworking, lawful, family oriented and want to prosper. The other 10% are not. The LEO in Camden are possibly in the worst position a cop can be in, no support from local elected authority, PR sucks, understaffed, horrible morale and a willing to kill you on sight adversary. Friend of mine's son is a Camden PD... first day back on street after three years as desk sarge, he has to shoot a mentally unstable indiv with a knife. That was the 4th person he has had to shoot in a less then 15 year career. No LEO should have to put there life in the line that much. I dont blame a single officer that took those jobs offered to them in Nashville... less money sure, but safer by a mile is worth alot of cash.

 

The only way Camden gets cleaned out is if the surrounding SJ towns say enough is enough, Philly included, we are sick of your issues effecting our towns and they all throw LEO/business/legal/housing/human services mass at the town to clean it up... the city can not be run from within, too many people with good intention (or bad) making bade decisions one after another. Example... the decision to keep derelict houses vacant instead of knocking them down and planting grass or parks. Why, so people could moving into town could buy them for cheap housing, but nobody moves to Camden. Folks would rather rent an apartment in a nearby town then own a house in Camden. It's when the thugs move to other towns, and their behavior in their new towns gets them locked up that things clean up... reference the diaspora of NO to Houston, Atlanta, Memphis, Dallas etc etc. Those towns took crime spikes, then settled back to normal once all the thugs got locked up in the new towns. Sucked for those towns for few years, but those criminal immigrants had no support system in the new towns, so they were vulnerable to LEO actions. A long and uncertain process, and one I can tell you the towns surrounding Camden (Pennsuaken, Cherry Hill, Gloucester City etc etc) aint willing to take on.

 

Dana Redd, the Camden Mayor, and my wife went to high school together and keep in touch. Dana is a Camden girl and weeps openly for her city now. She has inherited an absolute crap hole and is keeping it together with duct tape and bailing wire right now. A position nobody here would undertake. She deserves our support. I dont know how just yet, but there is a better solution out there... maybe moving the NG in will stabilize the solution, I dont think it will.

 

By the way a curfew would not work, a stop and frisk like Philly did might work better. That is prob where they are going. Although Philly is no glowing example of lawful behavior currently.

 

I have to get my family out of here. sorry for the long rant

... all that being said, the courts have to be prepared to handle those that are arrested. None of this "keep them out of jail due to overcrowding" nonsense. The last I heard, none of the perps were concerned about their victims human rights, so why should anyone care about theirs while in jail. Lock them up and keep them there. If they're 6 or 7 or 8 deep piled on top of each other, who gives a sh*t? Certainly, not me. If we continue to make being in prison like it's a country club, there's no reason for these scumbags not to go.

Didnt they lay off a bunch of cops?

 

Anyone have a match? I think its best if that place just burned to the ground!

(it just one of the arm pits of PRNJ)

I was born in Camden, my mom was born in Camden (graduated from Camden catholic) and her mom was born in Camden. I got out at a very young age but I still had family there growing up. It's amazing to look at the pictures through the generations of what that city use to be and what it is now. It's a shame. The ng might not be the right answer, but it may be. But at least it is trying. Just letting it go and ignore it isn't the answer.

 

Funny you brought up bullets. The kid actually said "I wonder if we'll actually get live rounds" I though he was joking.

I live about 20 minutes from Camden and I know that the scum floats its way to the lower end of Camden County. What gets me really PO'd about the situation is that outside the confines of my little 1/2 plot of property, I have no rights in this state to protect myself and my family by being able to carry!

 

 

Fence the city- doable

Provide safe exit for the Citizens

And lay seige to the city.

 

When there are no ifrared images

Reopen the city.

I'm for the idea, however, someone is gonna sue and guess who flips the bill? we the tax paying citizen.

I live about 20 minutes from Camden and I know that the scum floats its way to the lower end of Camden County. What gets me really PO'd about the situation is that outside the confines of my little 1/2 plot of property, I have no rights in this state to protect myself and my family by being able to carry!

 

Your preaching to the quier on that one. Most people on this site would give up a toe for a nj ccw

Until the attitude of the residents of NJ is changed and they want to defend themselves this downward spiral will continue and even spread to other areas. We are not without our rights in this state solely because of corrupt politicians. If the people cried out in mass the want to defend themselves we would have them back quickly. The fact is that the general person from NJ relies 100% on the police for assistance and not just because the law forces them to.

Your preaching to the quier on that one. Most people on this site would give up a toe for a nj ccw

 

Yes, you are correct!

I am curious to see if Camden erupts 1967 Newark Style how gun rights in NJ will be affected. IIRC, 1992 LA actually caused some good waves for gun rights.

While I agree that something needs to be done in that hellhole this is not the answer. The guard doesn't have arrest powers,they don't know the paperwork and probably aren't that familiar with the area. Either way they are going to ave to call police to make and process the arrest. What would be better is to hire the rest of the cops back and use the guard to enforce a curfew. Anybody out after curfew roaming around gets locked up. Those that roam the streets after hours are the ones causing problems. You will find warrants, weapons and drugs with those stops therefore reducing the number of unwanteds on the streets

Really only a stopgap until they have enough police presence to deal with the issue. To keep it from maybe getting so far out of hand

 

No offense, but more Law Enforcement is not the answer. That's the paradigm in NJ, that the people are like so much helpless cattle to be protected. I find it insulting and degrading.

 

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. How come it was so obvious 230 years ago, but today we can't seem to figure it out?

 

The reason that Camden is such a mess is because the law-abiding citizens are disarmed and the criminals are armed and, therefore, able to operate with impunity. Well, what did they think was going to happen? Allow concealed carry in Camden and the problem will correct itself a lot faster than any other method.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ what he said...

But... under what orders can the military take over a town?

 

Even though Camden needs to be cleaned up... this seriously scares me of military patrolling our streets.

 

As previously stated, the NG is controlled by the state.

 

Sooo basically Martial Law in Camden?

 

It doesn't seem like Matrial Law. I would assume there would need to be some classification of emergencyy etc...before that could be declared. Also, I wonder about a curfew.

 

The National Guard is not going to Camden. And there are three reasons why.

 

The 50th IBTC, has two infantry battalions, and RSTA (calvary) battalion and and artillery battalion. They also have one MP company. These would be the people most likely to perform service in Camden.

 

While I don't know much about military police, I know that one company of Infantrymen is about 120 soldiers composed of 3 platoons of about 30-40 men and one headquarters platoon. I estimate that the City of Camden would need about one company of soldiers to assist the police which would mean one platoon on duty for 12 hours a day, with one additional platoon available for Quick Reaction Force duty.

 

By NJ law, any NJ National Guard soldier unit that is activated must get paid at least $100 per day. This happened after September 11th when the National Guard is was guarding nuke plants, bridges and tunnels. Odds are that companies would be activated for 29 day stretches because once a National Guard soldier is on duty for 30 or more days, the state is required to provide health insurance.

 

So you have 120 men, each getting paid at least $100 per day. That means that the state needs to find at least $12000 dollars per day, and quite possibly more because a Sergeant or Lieutenant gets paid more than a private . Over 29 days, that adds up to $348,000 just in salary.

 

Now let's add in food. Let's take a base rate of $6.00 per meal for a vendor contracted meal. 6x3 meals per day is $18.00 per soldier. Multiply that times 120 and you get $2160 per day to feed one company of soldiers. Multiply that times 29 days and you get $62,640.

 

So now we're up to $410,640 per month, and we haven't paid for a drop of diesel fuel for the hummers yet. The State of New Jersey is broke. They don't have an extra $500,000 per month to protect Camden with troops.

 

So that's the first reason. You could also, theoretically add in the cost to the local economy when you pull people out of productive, high paying jobs. I write computer software. I make six figures and pay 6.47% of my wages in state taxes. The state would lose out on all of the taxable high-paying income that soldiers would be making if they were doing their normal jobs - which tend to pay more than the military. Now add in the fact that many National Guardsmen are government employees (police/fire/teachers/government workers) who will be double dipping - but that takes some math and I don't have a lot of time here.

 

Now here's the second: even if that money were available, the State Police would go absolutely ape. The State Police has a union, the National Guard does not. If a money bomb of $410,640 per month were suddenly dropped on Camden, and it was given to the National Guard, the State Police would have a conniption since that money could theoretically go to their overtime. Who do you think will win that battle?

 

Third: If the National Guard were really let out into the streets of Camden, their Rules of Engagement would be so strict that they would have no function other than look pretty in green. Odds are that they would be given 10 rounds of ammunition per man, and they would not be allowed to patrol with magazines in their weapons. How do I know this? Because that was the ROE in Katrina. The politicians in this state do not want National Guardsmen walking around our streets with assault rifles. Either the Guardsmen would get killed because he couldn't load his weapon fast enough, or he would be forced to kill, which would result in investigations and news articles.

 

Trust me, the National Guard is not going to Camden.

 

My company paid me for military time. They also paid if a worker was activated. They carried our benny's as well as paid any lost wages as a result of being activated. So there would be no tax loss I guess or minimal if other companies do the same.

 

I am not sure if I agree with it or not. If the NG isn't familiar with the area, has it's hands tied behind it's back, what will it accomplish other than possibly intimidating people.

As previously stated, the NG is controlled by the state.

 

 

 

It doesn't seem like Matrial Law. I would assume there would need to be some classification of emergencyy etc...before that could be declared. Also, I wonder about a curfew.

 

 

 

My company paid me for military time. They also paid if a worker was activated. They carried our benny's as well as paid any lost wages as a result of being activated. So there would be no tax loss I guess or minimal if other companies do the same.

 

Dont you work for the post office?

That would be a federal agency?

Sounds like a ponzi scheme!!!

Dont you work for the post office?

That would be a federal agency?

Sounds like a ponzi scheme!!!

 

I used to work for the PO. I work for Verizon. They may not be perfect, but they did the right thing by the guys that were activated.

 

Also, city and state workers as well as most companies have military time that is paid. I think for VZ, it's 15 days. I think it was the same in the PO. I knew a few city cops that got like 30 days or something crazy like that. They really made out.

National Guard or Army/Navy/Marines, whatever... people would not be making that distinction... it is military on the streets.

 

a CCW would deter potential crime, say in Newark, or Elizabeth, but I do not think it would work in Camden.

 

I would be glad to visit friends in etown if I could CCW, or would even visit some awesome restaurants in Newark.... but going to Camden? Not unless I can carry a Saiga 12 with a 20 round drum, or an AR with a 60 round Surfire mag. CCW would not help in Somalia.

 

Maybe a few years ago, it could of... right now? I really don't know. The stories of people murdered in broad daylight, next to the aquarium, and person being put on hold at the police department... does not scream safe.

 

This might be the case for creating jobs... by knocking down abandoned homes, making them parks, and hiring a ton of cops. In conjunction with lenient gun laws and expedited issue of FID. =) Give every business owner or sales person in camden a CCW.

 

National Guard... or any boots on the ground for that matter, will only either temporarily stop the issues... but it is not going to solve the problem.

i agree maks.

What is the long term plan? sure bring in the NG, but at what point do you decide they have servered their purpose... and what plan is put forward to make sure it wasnt all for nothing....

 

I see it this way, bring in the NG, crime rates drop....... nothing has really changed but military presence.. when they leave everythingjust goes back the way it was before the NG showed up... Piss poor temporary fix to something that needs much more attention then this.

NDAA in action... Signed Jan 1!

I would be glad to visit friends in etown if I could CCW, or would even visit some awesome restaurants in Newark.... but going to Camden? Not unless I can carry a Saiga 12 with a 20 round drum, or an AR with a 60 round Surfire mag. CCW would not help in Somalia.

 

Im down neck all the time (ironbound) for Portugese food! I love the Sangria @ the Spanish Tavern.

They gonna have to shoot me to keep me away!

The people who would benefit most from concealed carry permits are law abiding citizens of Camden and similar places. It's a no-brainer.

 

a CCW would deter potential crime, say in Newark, or Elizabeth, but I do not think it would work in Camden.

 

 

+1..

 

the notion of armed citizens magically restoring order to places like Camden is misplaced IMO...

 

it will take a hell of a lot more in places like Camden.... Philly.. etc.. these places are the lowest of low.. and will require serious and aggressive action by highly trained individuals.. a soccer mom with a 38 just isn't going to do it..

 

doesn't mean people should not be able to CCW.. they absolutely should.. it just isn't going to fix Camden.. lol IMO of course..