August 25, 201214 yr At this distance, how much can this be attributed to poor shooting or effects of the monster trigger pull. Even modern JHP ammo could pass through an extremity right? Not all the bystanders were hit directly. Ricochet and the open backstop of a city street swarming with pedestrians are a factor. When you consider the speed with which this encounter concluded, it's hard to imagine much trigger control letting loose 9 Rounds. A tough spot fr these guys, definitely. The victim obviously knew his killer was a threat. TRO did nothing to prevent his murder. His killer knew the victim would be disarmed and had zero deterrent from this horrible act. He could do nothing but try and run away. And you're not outrunning a 1911.
August 25, 201214 yr There is a trade off to that and I believe it was mentioned here or elsewhere. What they may lack in gun training John Q Public lacks in tactics. This isn't a video game where people can come back after a spray and pray shoot. While we may be able to hit our targets easier, do you really think we all have the self control, tactics, discipline? Not to fire or fire under extreme pressure where the adrenaline flow takes over? I'm sorry to use you as an example Joe, but there it is folks. What makes police better then the rest of us to carry and use a firearm? I do more shooting in a weekend then most police will do all year. Personally, IMO The whole - Police are better trained & qualified argument is shattered, as we see with this nypd incident Unless a cop takes it upon hiself, like Joe, to better his skills both for hobby and professional reasons, the skill is just not there with the average cop. Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple...
August 25, 201214 yr First things first and that is the NYPD guys did good. When I read the negative criticisms it reminded me of the scene in "The Right Stuff" where a bunch of pilots are criticizing Gus Grissom for losing the space capsule on the 2nd Project Mercury flight. One of the pilots makes the comment that Grissom "screwed up a job a monkey can do". The Chuck Yeager character then chimes in saying "Yeah, but a monkey doesn't know he's sitting on top of a rocket that can explode any minute. Old Gus, he did all right". Same applies here. The 12# trigger had nothing to do with the accuracy or lack of it at the ranges involved. Neither would a 5 or a 20# trigger. I will admit that the 12# trigger mandated by NYPD is horrible. It came about due to an attempt to duplicate a revolver trigger. The problem is you can't take a DA or striker fired semi auto as smooth as a DA revolver. Smooth is a lot more important than light. I agree your average NYPD officer can use more training. I say this having spent time well over a couple of thousand hours at Rodman's Neck over the years. The agency I worked for was one of many that used NYPD facilities there. There was a range in the basement of many precincts until OSHA shut down all but one or two. Having a place to shoot is a significant challenge for many LE agencies. LEOs have low hit ratios. So did most gunfights in the Old West. Gunfighting is a lot more than doubletapping that piece of card board and moving on to the next. NYPD found out long ago there is no correlation between how one does at the range vs how they do in a gunfight. Not saying you don't need practice but reinforcing what Cooper and other have said about gunfighting being 95% mental. The area LEOs far surpass the average shooter is the ability to recognize situations where the use of deadly force is justified. Those hit by the friendly fire will get out of court settlements. Not good that it happened but good no one was seriously hurt. This is not a situation where "if someone with a CCW was there it may have been different". Judging from the accounts it seems the bad guy walked up and shot his victim in the head. Someone with a CCW or a plainclothes LEO may have been shot by the uniform guys. I'm not arguing against CCW just giving my opinion based on what has been reported.
August 25, 201214 yr First things first and that is the NYPD guys did good. When I read the negative criticisms it reminded me of the scene in "The Right Stuff" where a bunch of pilots are criticizing Gus Grissom for losing the space capsule on the 2nd Project Mercury flight. One of the pilots makes the comment that Grissom "screwed up a job a monkey can do". The Chuck Yeager character then chimes in saying "Yeah, but a monkey doesn't know he's sitting on top of a rocket that can explode any minute. Old Gus, he did all right". Same applies here. The 12# trigger had nothing to do with the accuracy or lack of it at the ranges involved. Neither would a 5 or a 20# trigger. I will admit that the 12# trigger mandated by NYPD is horrible. It came about due to an attempt to duplicate a revolver trigger. The problem is you can't take a DA or striker fired semi auto as smooth as a DA revolver. Smooth is a lot more important than light. I agree your average NYPD officer can use more training. I say this having spent time well over a couple of thousand hours at Rodman's Neck over the years. The agency I worked for was one of many that used NYPD facilities there. There was a range in the basement of many precincts until OSHA shut down all but one or two. Having a place to shoot is a significant challenge for many LE agencies. LEOs have low hit ratios. So did most gunfights in the Old West. Gunfighting is a lot more than doubletapping that piece of card board and moving on to the next. NYPD found out long ago there is no correlation between how one does at the range vs how they do in a gunfight. Not saying you don't need practice but reinforcing what Cooper and other have said about gunfighting being 95% mental. The area LEOs far surpass the average shooter is the ability to recognize situations where the use of deadly force is justified. Those hit by the friendly fire will get out of court settlements. Not good that it happened but good no one was seriously hurt. This is not a situation where "if someone with a CCW was there it may have been different". Judging from the accounts it seems the bad guy walked up and shot his victim in the head. Someone with a CCW or a plainclothes LEO may have been shot by the uniform guys. I'm not arguing against CCW just giving my opinion based on what has been reported. Well said...There's alot of monday morning quarterback keyboard warriors on this thread.
August 25, 201214 yr I'll leave my comments to this. 1) It annoys the hell out of me that they tried to spin this as another mass shooting, even after they knew better. 2) if your officers are having NDs which are due to lack of familiarity with a gun with a very serviceable 5-6lb trigger, and your answer is to saddle them with a 12lb trigger that makes it harder to use the gun properly, you have a problem and it isn't gear. You either aren't training your people properly, or you are trying to blame the gear for bad judgement on behalf of the officers. Whatever the cause, it made these officers' job harder.
August 25, 201214 yr Well said...There's alot of monday morning quarterback keyboard warriors on this thread. Agreed
August 25, 201214 yr Well said...There's alot of monday morning quarterback keyboard warriors on this thread. If you don't wish to read "monday morning quarterback keyboard warriors" posts, then I'm not sure what you are expecting a discussion on a online forum on a topic like this to be. People give their opinions on the incident and interject thoughts about what they think happened and what they would have rather happened. I'm not sure what the purpose of calling that "monday morning quarterback keyboard warriors" is. The fact that 9 bystanders were injured by police fire is an issue, regardless of the reason. I said before, I am not blaming the officers themselves. They really had no option but to shoot. But if you don't think there are factors that were against them that attributed to 9 bystanders being hit, you are being naive. Of course in a perfect world, nobody innocent would have been injured. Of course this isn't a perfect world. Chances are, if a gunfight breaks out on a busy NYC street, some people not involved are going to get injured. That does NOT mean there aren't ways to try and mitigate that and reduce the risk. That is why people are talking about the ridiculous 12 pound triggers they are forced to use. That is why people are talking about the limited training they can get. Dismissing these factors because of some sort of notion they don't matter as long as the actions were correct, is baffling.
August 25, 201214 yr Im just making the point that making statements about officers who made a split second life and death decision and what they should have done or to say their training was inadequate is assinine..How does anyone here know what training these guys received? Do you have their personnel folders? How do you know those guys dont shoot competitvely every weekend. And how the hell does anyone here know that a 12 lb trigger had any effect on guys who have used such a trigger on guns they qualify on for 15+ years. Thats monday morning qb nonsense.
August 25, 201214 yr Damn..usually anything close i tackle. Thats how i destroyed my back. Lol..im working on it. Honestly. I really only have been seriously shooting for about a year. Before that it was only twice a year to qualify. I am determined to hone my skills. Can you write that training off? I'd bet you can. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
August 25, 201214 yr And how the hell does anyone here know that a 12 lb trigger had any effect on guys who have used such a trigger on guns they qualify on for 15+ years. Thats monday morning qb nonsense. How do you know it didn't? This isn't a trial and we aren't a jury. This is in online forum giving opinions and discussing ideas. You on the other hand seem to think we shouldn't do any of that. I'm not aware people are stating these things as absolute facts. So why are you commenting anyways. How do we know the news reports are accurate? How do we know anything? Were YOU there? You can play naive. I'm sure you aren't though.
August 25, 201214 yr My argument is not the discussion itself. It's the non- stop cop bashings going on in more than this thread. I'd like to see more being constructive without pointing fingers. Discuss training, weapons, scenarios. But do it without saying the cops coulda woulda shoulda... Analyze the situation without wise arse comments... They should be fired, they should do this and that. How does that create constructive discussion? Just pisses off the leo we have here as well as others with enough common sense to realize the blame game does not work in all cases. Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple...
August 25, 201214 yr Don't know these LEO personally, but I do know one fella hired by NYPD within the last year who was turned down literally by every NJ department he applied to even the Sheriffs.....he couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle and now he's carrying .......Training...? What's That....? It's not all what it seems to be just because the Mayor of NY or the PC says so..........Politics. It's all about Training............not Politics.
August 25, 201214 yr No amount of collateral damage is acceptable, period. I really don't understand how that is either a) armchair quarterbacking or b) LEO bashing. In WW2 technology was not available to prevent bombs falling on innocent targets and as a result collateral damage (at least from this vantage point 60 some years later) seems to have been accepted. Today, missiles can be fed down a pipe stack. Today, collateral damage is NOT acceptable. Technology has progressed. Should a different round be issued to NYPD to prevent ricochets etc? Possibly. I would like to read the AAR on this when it is finally published.
August 25, 201214 yr I know some posts were deleted, but I've only seen one person here actually cop bashing. Far and away more people were raising issues with the political issues effecting the ability of cops to do their job...so I'm not sure where this 'non-stop cop bashing' you are talking about is coming from.
August 25, 201214 yr Whelp, politics can be and usually is part of it. When politicians do everything in their powers to fatten their wallets, misappropriating funds and whatnot, it reflects back directly on the end result. Hence improper training or lack there of... Don't know these LEO personally, but I do know one fella hired by NYPD within the last year who was turned down literally by every NJ department he applied to even the Sheriffs.....he couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle and now he's carrying .......Training...? What's That....? It's not all what it seems to be just because the Mayor of NY or the PC says so..........Politics. It's all about Training............not Politics. Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple...
August 25, 201214 yr If they have been deleted, you may not have time to read them. But they exist. I know some posts were deleted, but I've only seen one person here actually cop bashing. Far and away more people were raising issues with the political issues effecting the ability of cops to do their job...so I'm not sure where this 'non-stop cop bashing' you are talking about is coming from. Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple...
August 25, 201214 yr In a perfect world, but when you decide to live/work in one of the most congested parts of the country, there is not always easy ways around it. The preverbial magic bullet simple does not exist yet for t environments. No amount of collateral damage is acceptable, period. I really don't understand how that is either a) armchair quarterbacking or b) LEO bashing. In WW2 technology was not available to prevent bombs falling on innocent targets and as a result collateral damage (at least from this vantage point 60 some years later) seems to have been accepted. Today, missiles can be fed down a pipe stack. Today, collateral damage is NOT acceptable. Technology has progressed. Should a different round be issued to NYPD to prevent ricochets etc? Possibly. I would like to read the AAR on this when it is finally published. Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple...
August 25, 201214 yr As I said on a previous thread..anybody can wax poetic about how great they are on a range and how much training they got and how light their trigger is..until you are placed on that street looking down the barrel of a .45 with people running everywhere...NOBODY knows how they will react..thats a fact ..period..the human mind and body are not perfect..
August 25, 201214 yr What he said! ^^^^^^ As I said on a previous thread..anybody can wax poetic about how great they are on a range and how much training they got and how light their trigger is..until you are placed on that street looking down the barrel of a .45 with people running everywhere...NOBODY knows how they will react..thats a fact ..period..the human mind and body are not perfect.. Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple...
August 25, 201214 yr My argument is not the discussion itself. It's the non- stop cop bashings going on in more than this thread. I'd like to see more being constructive without pointing fingers. Discuss training, weapons, scenarios. But do it without saying the cops coulda woulda shoulda... Analyze the situation without wise arse comments... They should be fired, they should do this and that. How does that create constructive discussion? Just pisses off the leo we have here as well as others with enough common sense to realize the blame game does not work in all cases. Too damned thin skinned. Toughen up! And this isn't internet commando stuff. I'll probably see John during the week...LOL Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple...
August 25, 201214 yr You will? Lol... Now where would that be? Nothing to do with tough skin. I just enjoy better conversation... Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple...
August 25, 201214 yr There is a trade off to that and I believe it was mentioned here or elsewhere. What they may lack in gun training John Q Public lacks in tactics. This isn't a video game where people can come back after a spray and pray shoot. While we may be able to hit our targets easier, do you really think we all have the self control, tactics, discipline? Not to fire or fire under extreme pressure where the adrenaline flow takes over? Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple... I think that honestly, they may freeze up, and do nothing, even if they are packing. To actually draw requires a lot of focus, and if you're afraid that you're going to screw up, I think most people would be too afraid to even intervene. It is ironic that the police ended up doing more damage than the assailant, from what I hear. As for those that will get on me for bashing the police--We've been broken into three times this year, five in the past few years, and they've never done anything about it. I'll see a cop make an illegal right turn on red, nearly causing an accident, but when I need them to go after the people victimizing me, they're never to be found. If police are going to complain about their public perception, they themselves should strive to "Serve and Protect" and actually help the public.
August 25, 201214 yr You will? Lol... Now where would that be? Nothing to do with tough skin. I just enjoy better conversation... Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple... Hope to see you at the shop. I may even bring the scooter.
August 25, 201214 yr That falls under, "there are bad eggs in every profession".... Then one more saying, "what goes around, comes around"... They'll have their day... Hopefully before someone innocent gets hurt. I think that honestly, they may freeze up, and do nothing, even if they are packing. To actually draw requires a lot of focus, and if you're afraid that you're going to screw up, I think most people would be too afraid to even intervene. It is ironic that the police ended up doing more damage than the assailant, from what I hear. As for those that will get on me for bashing the police--We've been broken into three times this year, five in the past few years, and they've never done anything about it. I'll see a cop make an illegal right turn on red, nearly causing an accident, but when I need them to go after the people victimizing me, they're never to be found. If police are going to complain about their public perception, they themselves should strive to "Serve and Protect" and actually help the public. Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple...
August 25, 201214 yr Check your pm.... Lol... Hope to see you at the shop. I may even bring the scooter. Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple...
August 25, 201214 yr kaiser, quote It is ironic that the police ended up doing more damage than the assailant, from what I hear. because he did not have a chance the two officers took him out, the outcome could have been much worse..
August 26, 201214 yr It is good to see the NYC bureaucrats being called out for their anti-gun stupidity. Gun control advocates contribute to unintended victims getting shot by police at Empire State Building
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