Wow. Really shows how quick it all happens doesn't it?

 

Back when I was a student of aerial combat I read a quote from a German ace that said something like "we all talk about tactics but the best way I can describe it is like being in car crash. You live or die in that time frame."

 

That video reminds me of those words I have come to respect.

 

Best post so far IMHO, Thanks for posting this.

 

Quoted from someone who has been there and done that.

This entire incident to me screams that more live-fire training is needed. And I think the mushy 12 pound trigger DID have something to do with it. 44 years behind a gun teaches you some things, even if you don't have "official paperwork". My "gut instinct" would be to draw my gun and have it pointed center-mass on the Perp that was ID'd by the eye-witness construction worker, and to do this PRIOR to having said Perp turn & draw from his coat pocket. Retention holsters are used to prevent a Wacko from grabbing a Cop's gun from behind or in a blind spot, they're NOT designed to be used to smoothly draw after a Perp points his sidearm at you. In all of this frenzy, you'll probably not have a good grip on your gun. So if you're gonna stop a GUNMAN, why is your gun still in it's holster? Yes, it all happened FAST! Yes the Perp was hit 7 times. Maybe the Police Training Instructors could glean something from this tactic and incorporate it into the training that Police receive? If I'm guilty of Monday morning QB'ng then so be it, as I only want the best for both the Police and the public at-large.

 

I too have witnessed and shot the Official Qualification Course, under Police supervision. BOTH with a revolver AND a .45 1911. In fact my then 17-year old Son used my 4" revolver and shot one of the Quals beside me. He put 58 rounds into the Q-Target, tying the Police Instructor who does it every month and I did 57 (out of a possible 60). My son placed 2nd in the entire Qualification that day (several Relays) and the only "training" he had was being around guns his entire life! Strong-hand only, weak-hand only, using both hands, kneeling using cover, standing, from as much as 25 yards and even from retention at only 3 feet! It's NOT THAT EASY with nobody shooting back at you, and although I don't know what the minimum passing score is, after having actually done it myself, I'm here to tell ya that twice a year is WAY TOO INFREQUENT!! I applaud Blueline and all of my Cop Buddies that I routinely shoot with, for taking a serious interest in superior marksmanship attained by constant practice at their own expense.

 

I wish this never happened!

 

Dave

Also this situation reminds me of some great lyrics from the Mighty Mighty Bosstones;

 

I'm not a coward,

I've just never been tested

I'd like to think that if I was,

I would pass

Look at the tested and think there but for the grace go on

I might be a coward,

I'm afraid of what I might find out.

 

I've never had to knock on wood

But I know someone who has

Which makes me wonder if I could

It makes me wonder if

I've never had to knock on wood

And I'm glad i haven't yet

Because I'm sure it isn't good

That's the impression that I get.

Are you suggesting Glock be named in a Law suit ......namely for injury caused by neglegence...?

Its funny. Handgun quals are twice a year. Handgun is harder than long guns which are 4 times a year. Our minimum passing on day is 48 out of 60 and night is 32 out of 40. Like i said i have only recently started shooting more. I always thought if i can qualify i could shoot. Static and knockdown humbled me real quick. Now i am dedicated to getting better. Its funny but when im in the tac house under stress i shoot better. Dint know if that would translate to real world but it is usually the opposite. Quals easy tac house hard due to stress. I have always seemed to better when i stopped thinking too much. Lol

Are you suggesting Glock be named in a Law suit ......namely for injury caused by neglegence...?

 

As ridiculous that as it may sound, I think that a lawyer could come up with some really good points attributing that the 12# trigger is inherently harder to control and more innacurate then a " standard " trigger. Is it Glocks fault? No. It's the momo who came up with idea that the NY2 triggers were a good idea.

 

If you think lack of training did not play a factor in not only this cause, but the dozens of other cases throughout the years of police firing off dozens if not damn near 100 rounds and hitting the perp less then a handful of times your insane. It's their JOB to be accurate, and if your not an expert marksmen with your duty weapon, you need some work.

 

And how can we all be monday morning quarterbacking when it's only Saturday?

As ridiculous that as it may sound, I think that a lawyer could come up with some really good points attributing that the 12# trigger is inherently harder to control and more innacurate then a " standard " trigger. Is it Glocks fault? No. It's the momo who came up with idea that the NY2 triggers were a good idea.

 

YOu guys should read "Glock:The Rise of America's Gun"

 

They have already been sued for this and for the stock trigger.

A firefight is a firefight, is a firefight. Even the mighty shit their drawers sometimes. I pray all the survivors get past this incident safely, especially the innocents and the Police Officers. Maybe the Police Officers more because of all the shit that's going to come out of the mouths of the misinformed. I have a friend that was involved with a righteous shoot, he has a hard time living with it. A little mercy on our part is due here. This was a lose/lose situation. I don't read the papers or watch the news, I just learned about this here on our Forum. Terrible.

Cops need more training but it's too expensive? The answer is easy, IDPA. Require them to shoot 2 matches a year. Give them the ammo for it too. Is that so bad?

Its funny. Handgun quals are twice a year. Handgun is harder than long guns which are 4 times a year. Our minimum passing on day is 48 out of 60 and night is 32 out of 40. Like i said i have only recently started shooting more. I always thought if i can qualify i could shoot. Static and knockdown humbled me real quick. Now i am dedicated to getting better. Its funny but when im in the tac house under stress i shoot better. Dint know if that would translate to real world but it is usually the opposite. Quals easy tac house hard due to stress. I have always seemed to better when i stopped thinking too much. Lol

 

 

See, that's a good thing to hear. I mean, I suppose not all police find shooting fun, but I would think that qualification would be more frequent. Shooting isn't as easy as point and pull really, and when you throw in variables such as stress, and other factors of such a situation, things can go pretty bad.

 

It's commendable that you're taking it upon yourself to better your skills, and quite frankly, I believe that if you, or another officer with your commitment to training had been on the scene, there would not have been the collateral damage that occurred.

 

I'm more upset that when the details were still sketchy, that the media was trying to paint it as an issue that it was another lunatic on a killing spree, when it was just some pissed off guy committing a single murder, a "normal" crime, if you will. Once it came out that he had not shot anyone else, only the one victim, they lost interest in the story, and, of course, never apologized for their efforts to try and vilify gun owners yet again.

Cops need more training but it's too expensive? The answer is easy, IDPA. Require them to shoot 2 matches a year. Give them the ammo for it too. Is that so bad?

Sounds good..but while those officers are at the matches and their spots have to be covered with overtime and the town has to pay for ammo..then the townspeople freak out why their police budget is so high..hence layoffs..my dept makes us qual twice a year with handgun and shotgun..4 times a year each with m4 and mp5.. And two simunition 8 hr sessions for active shooter scenarios..thats 14 range sessions x8 hrs = 112 hrs putting lead downrange a year..at the very minimum..and yet every bean counter constantly asks if we need to shoot that much..as always cops dont mind training..its the bottom line $ that counts with taxpayers and politicians..

Sounds good..but while those officers are at the matches and their spots have to be covered with overtime and the town has to pay for ammo..then the townspeople freak out why their police budget is so high..hence layoffs..my dept makes us qual twice a year with handgun and shotgun..4 times a year each with m4 and mp5.. And two simunition 8 hr sessions for active shooter scenarios..thats 14 range sessions x8 hrs = 112 hrs putting lead downrange a year..at the very minimum..and yet every bean counter constantly asks if we need to shoot that much..as always cops dont mind training..its the bottom line $ that counts with taxpayers and politicians..

 

Just have the city supply the ammo, you only need a few hundred rounds a match. And it doesn't have to be during work hours. Hell, even let the city pay for the entry fee. It's not that much money. Is that so bad? To Bloomberg it would be a catastrophe to allow their coppers to shoot in a, OH NO, NRA sponsored match! It's why it would never happen.

Im all for it Ray Ray. Like you said..put the words competition and NRA in something and the municipal lawyers perk up like dogs at feeding time. Thats why I enjoy going to the range on my own and participating in this forum.

Lets say that of the 9 people hit by the cops 5 died. What then? What if even 1 died?

 

I think both the cops and the bystanders got very, very lucky on this one.

I am just glad Bloomberg did not say they were hit by friendly fire..

I am just glad Bloomberg did not say they were hit by friendly fire..

 

Of course not. Like I said before he candy coats when his officers wound 9 people but goes off at the mouth about how terrible guns are if one gang banger shoots another. Why don't you outfit all the officers with a nightstick and a radio like they do in England you idiot? See how well that works out.

Just have the city supply the ammo, you only need a few hundred rounds a match. And it doesn't have to be during work hours. Hell, even let the city pay for the entry fee. It's not that much money. Is that so bad?

 

If you are required to do something for work, it's work, and you need to be paid for it...

If you are required to do something for work, it's work, and you need to be paid for it...

 

That is funny, this state has licensing requirements for my industry, there is no requirement in the text of the law that mandates my employer has to pay me for the hours or even reimburse me for the cost of the classes required to obtain my continuing education units which can be in upwards of over $1,000 each licensing cycle. If I do not take the classes and obtain the requisite number of CEUs I don't get to work in the industry I have been working in for the past 22+ years; so please tell me more about this concept that you speak of where if you are required to do something for work, it's work, and you need to be paid for it...

 

Let's play devil's advocate for a second. Perhaps we should just use my industry as a model, say 10 CEUs a year to renew your cop license and 1 match qualifies as a CEU? If it's good for the goose... Only fair, no?

Well, maybe the Mayor shouold do as England does and disarm the police..............?

 

Good idea............Huh ?

 

Training.............More Training..........NYPD is all about putting more cops on the street......That's all.

That is funny, this state has licensing requirements for my industry, there is no requirement in the text of the law that mandates my employer has to pay me for the hours or even reimburse me for the cost of the classes required to obtain my continuing education units which can be in upwards of over $1,000 each licensing cycle. If I do not take the classes and obtain the requisite number of CEUs I don't get to work in the industry I have been working in for the past 22+ years; so please tell me more about this concept that you speak of where if you are required to do something for work, it's work, and you need to be paid for it...

 

Let's play devil's advocate for a second. Perhaps we should just use my industry as a model, say 10 CEUs a year to renew your cop license and 1 match qualifies as a CEU? If it's good for the goose... Only fair, no?

 

Please! CEU's for Cops? Union Members? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Only peons like Doctors and Engineers need continuing education. The rest of Gen Pop certainly doesn't need training to maintain any proficiency. /sarcasm off

That is funny, this state has licensing requirements for my industry, there is no requirement in the text of the law that mandates my employer has to pay me for the hours or even reimburse me for the cost of the classes required to obtain my continuing education units which can be in upwards of over $1,000 each licensing cycle. If I do not take the classes and obtain the requisite number of CEUs I don't get to work in the industry I have been working in for the past 22+ years; so please tell me more about this concept that you speak of where if you are required to do something for work, it's work, and you need to be paid for it...

 

Let's play devil's advocate for a second. Perhaps we should just use my industry as a model, say 10 CEUs a year to renew your cop license and 1 match qualifies as a CEU? If it's good for the goose... Only fair, no?

 

+1

From Vickers Tactical:

 

Another disturbing trend is for Law Enforcement agencies to put very heavy trigger on their issue service pistol for liability reasons. The most famous example is the Glock New York trigger that weighs approx 8 lbs and even worse is the New York plus that has a trigger pull weight of 12 lbs. Remember if your pistol weighs 2 lbs loaded and you have an 8 pound trigger pull it will take 4 times the loaded weight of the the handgun to make it fire. This means for the typical shooter it is virtually impossible to shoot the weapon accurately under stress. This leads to misses and an unintentional spray and pray approach when in a gunfight. The danger to innocent bystanders is increased dramatically and the very thing that was meant to make the pistol safer ( heavy trigger pull ) actually increases the danger to the public that LE officers are sworn to protect. This sad state of affairs started as a byproduct of LE agencies that issued revolvers and relied on the long heavy double action trigger pull as a safety device. This lead to the unsafe habit of allowing officers to have their finger on the trigger when they should not. Enter a stock Glock 17 with a 5 lb trigger and no manual safeties of any kind and you have a recipe for disaster. A much better approach is to train and if need be re-train officers to keep their finger off the trigger at all times except when presenting the weapon toward the target. Always keep in mind that a mechanical device is a poor substitute for safe gun handling.

+1

+2

This means for the typical shooter it is virtually impossible to shoot the weapon accurately under stress.

 

Russians with Mosin Nagant had no problems with 20 lb (slight exaggeration) trigger and war stress.

From Vickers Tactical:

 

Another disturbing trend is for Law Enforcement agencies to put very heavy trigger on their issue service pistol for liability reasons. The most famous example is the Glock New York trigger that weighs approx 8 lbs and even worse is the New York plus that has a trigger pull weight of 12 lbs. Remember if your pistol weighs 2 lbs loaded and you have an 8 pound trigger pull it will take 4 times the loaded weight of the the handgun to make it fire. This means for the typical shooter it is virtually impossible to shoot the weapon accurately under stress. This leads to misses and an unintentional spray and pray approach when in a gunfight. The danger to innocent bystanders is increased dramatically and the very thing that was meant to make the pistol safer ( heavy trigger pull ) actually increases the danger to the public that LE officers are sworn to protect. This sad state of affairs started as a byproduct of LE agencies that issued revolvers and relied on the long heavy double action trigger pull as a safety device. This lead to the unsafe habit of allowing officers to have their finger on the trigger when they should not. Enter a stock Glock 17 with a 5 lb trigger and no manual safeties of any kind and you have a recipe for disaster. A much better approach is to train and if need be re-train officers to keep their finger off the trigger at all times except when presenting the weapon toward the target. Always keep in mind that a mechanical device is a poor substitute for safe gun handling.

 

4 days and 20 posts later somebody thinks the way I do, and backs it up with info from a reliable source in the industry.

 

Now all I need is for someone to say that maybe they should have their guns drawn if they're attempting to stop an alleged Hit Man, which is what the Construction Worker thought he saw and relayed to the Cops, as he put it when interviewed on TV, "the Police Detail around the corner".......

I do believe the entire article written by LV was way in advance of this incident.........but he's +100 on my scale.

4 days and 20 posts later somebody thinks the way I do, and backs it up with info from a reliable source in the industry.

 

Now all I need is for someone to say that maybe they should have their guns drawn if they're attempting to stop an alleged Hit Man, which is what the Construction Worker thought he saw and relayed to the Cops, as he put it when interviewed on TV, "the Police Detail around the corner".......

 

+1. I thought the same thing. You're attempting to stop and question a man you were told has a gun and just shot someone and you walk up behind him with your firearm still holstered? I would have thought they would've had them drawn as they came up behind the suspect.

 

 

4 days and 20 posts later somebody thinks the way I do, and backs it up with info from a reliable source in the industry.

 

Now all I need is for someone to say that maybe they should have their guns drawn if they're attempting to stop an alleged Hit Man, which is what the Construction Worker thought he saw and relayed to the Cops, as he put it when interviewed on TV, "the Police Detail around the corner".......

 

I made that point Friday night, after 25+ years shooting I don't need anyone to tell me doubling a weapons trigger pull makes it harder to shoot, it is common sense; it's just a really bad idea, much like most libtard ideas.

+1. I thought the same thing. You're attempting to stop and question a man you were told has a gun and just shot someone and you walk up behind him with your firearm still holstered? I would have thought they would've had them drawn as they came up behind the suspect.

 

It's hard to tell.. but from the video.. it looks like the cop on the right had his out as soon as they engaged the suspect ..and looks like he was shooting one handed.. the cop on the left.. draws and shoots two handed a second later when he sees the gun. I'm surprised at the speed the cop on the left was able to transition to his radio after shooting.

 

 

Again.. all Monday morning quarterbacking.. but running down a crowded Rush hour street in manhattan with your guns out could of created a panic that might have let the suspect escape..

 

but.. what if the construction worker had a CCW and had the drop on the murderer.. things could have been different..

Know your target and what is beyond.

Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.