Can anyone explain the factual reason why NJ cannot get its gun laws changed like most other States?

[Can anyone explain the factual reason why NJ cannot get its gun laws changed like most other States?]

So I finally sat down to crunch some numbers.

Here are a couple of things to note:

 

Just because you don’t like what I’m saying doesn’t mean that it isn’t true. There is already a group of people who ignore facts because it doesn’t help their case. Those people are called antis. The OP asked why NJ is the way it is. I gave a pretty reasonable explanation using qualitative data. Now I’ll use quantitative data.

 

In this paper I’m concentrating on burglary and robbery. These are the crimes in which a reasonable person may want a gun to defend their home and person. I’m not looking at murder or rape. There is too much variance in why people are murdered (crimes of passion, drug deals gone wrong) and most rapes are not “stranger rape” type scenarios. I’m also not looking at targeted crime, where a wealthy individual is specifically targeted (like Dr. Petit) for his wealth. I am looking at the traditional scenario of a burglar in the night or opportunistic stick-up – in other words the typical scenario that most of us think of when we envision being forced to use a gun.

 

My initial argument was that high property taxes are the real reason why guns are so unpopular in this state. High property taxes have segregated New Jersey into two basic communities: rich towns with high property taxes and poor towns with low property taxes. There are very few populous towns that have a mix of wealthy and poor individuals. This is not the case in many other states, where the rich, poor, and middle class live in different areas of the same town.

 

Some baseline figures. The poverty line in New Jersey is $22,881 per year. (http://www.nj.com/ne...es_for_4th.html)

The median income in New Jersey is $71,180. This tends to be a better indicator then average household income. (http://quickfacts.ce...34/3412385.html)

 

You can argue that the poor can just drive to wealthy areas and rob the wealthy. This sounds good in theory. But if this is the case, then why isn’t the burglary and robbery rate in the wealthier areas of the state higher than poorer towns? The answer could be in racial profiling or better alarm systems, but for some reason, the poor just don’t seem to be flocking to wealthy towns to commit crimes.

 

I used the US Census (http://quickfacts.ce.../qfd/index.html) and the FBI Uniform Crime reports from 2010 to compile this data. (http://www.fbi.gov/a...printable-files ) . 2011 is the last year of reliable information. Not all towns were in the census, so they were removed from the crime spreadsheet.

 

THE THEORY:

New Jersey residents don’t care about guns because there are basically two types of towns in New Jersey: rich towns and poor towns. In rich towns, there is low crime and people don’t think that you need a gun. In poor towns, there is too much crime and people want guns to just disappear from their lives. There are very, very few “mixed” towns where an average citizen would want a gun for self defense.

 

In this first chart, we see the top 10 cities for crime in NJ.

 

 

 

 

No surprises there, but the median income is $38,874, which is about 1.7 times the poverty line. Also note that the population in the top 10 cities is 1,197,930. Of the top 10 cities, only Toms River is remotely close to the median income and is the closest to my “mixed” theory.

 

Now let’s take a look at the bottom 10 cities for crime.

 

 

Most of these towns have fewer than 10,000 inhabitants. It’s obvious that there would be little crime. The total population of the bottom 10 cities is 69,049.

 

But let’s take the median income of $71,180 and go from there.

 

 

Interesting, we have median income and still very little crime. The total population is 175,153.

 

Maybe we’re dealing with bad data? What if we take the average NJ town size of 23,447?

 

 

These “average-sized” NJ towns have incomes that average 4 times the poverty line. With the exception of Roselle, crime doesn’t seem that bad in these towns. Most of these towns are very close to the NJ state median income. The total population of all of these towns is 248,857

 

Let’s increase selection sample and expand the selection by 1.5 and take towns between 35,170 and 11,723. The image is too large to show, but the average income is $78,494 and the average and the total population of all 59 cities in the expanded sample is 1,064,560.

 

Let’s just take take the top 10 cities for crime in the expanded sample, we see this:

 

 

Interesting? I think this is the stat that we are looking for, “middle class” cities – average population size where the rich live in close proximity to the poor and may need a gun to defend their homes. I think I hit the nail on the head in my previous post when I mentioned Vineland and Toms River as being one of those few “middle class” cities and the crime rate correlates with my original theory. The total population of these top 10 cities is 211,260.

 

If I take the entire population of towns below Collingswood on this chart – that is every town with a crime rate below 128 crimes per year and add up the population, I get a total of 1,592,758 people who don’t care about guns because crime never happens in their town. If I take the inhabitance of the top 10 crime-ridden cities I get 1,197,930 people who want guns out of their life. This gives me a total of 2,790,688 people who either hate guns or don’t see the need for one and 211,260 of people who live in “mixed” towns where they may reasonably want a gun for home or self defense.

 

This means that the deck is stacked against us when it comes to improving New Jersey’s gun laws because you are either live in a town with no crime so you don’t “need” a gun, or you are poor and live in a town where you want guns out of your life.

 

QED. Now I’m going to bed.

 

I understand what you are trying to say but I think you may have it backwards. What you are saying about property taxes implies that high property taxes attract rich people when in reality it is the other way around. It is no secret that when the cost to live in an area is beyond the reach of the demographics of most criminals, crime rates will be low so this is nothing new. However high taxes are not a magnet for the rich but rather a consequence so while the there is a correlation of property taxes to low crime, it is only the byproduct of high income and not the reason.

 

I have also believed that high income areas equate to low crime rates until I moved here. I spent 7 months researching various towns and cities in Florida and what I discovered is that high per captia income averages did not always equate to low crime rates. More surprising was that many places in NJ had much lower crime rates than some of the ritzier towns here. I live in a very large (80,000 people) retirement community so naturally the crime rates are very low as everyone is 55+ and older, no kids, teens or the standard demographic of those who commit the most violent crimes. White hair and pot bellies everywhere you look and everything we need from medical care and up, is a short golf cart ride away. We have gone almost a whole year without leaving our community because all we need is local. Since most are on a fixed income, the average income here is less than other places and yet it has a very low crime rate.

 

So my conclusion is that it is not income or property taxes that makes for a low crime rate but rather the demographics of the people who live there. Just happens that higher income people do not normally commit violent crimes as they have what they want and do not need to get it criminally or earn a living selling drugs. Same for the retired. To say that it is property taxes is really not correct in my opinion but there is a natural relationship between where the high income people live and high taxes but taxes do not act a as a magnet for the rich and do not necessarily guarantee lower crime rates than places with lower average income over a larger sampling of towns and cities. My in-laws live in a small city of 3,000 people and have the lowest crime rate in the area but the income level is on the lower end of the spectrum. Orlando has one of the highest taxes in the area and one of the highest crime rates.

[Can anyone explain the factual reason why NJ cannot get its gun laws changed like most other States?]

I think gun ownership in NJ has gone up due to sites like this one . But I think the major problems are the media, politicians and the gun laws themselves. It seems that for every good news piece that comes out in favor for conceal carry or gun ownership...it seems the media comes out with five or ten stories against it.

 

As an outsider, I have no easy panacea. I could easily say that the gun laws are the reason gun owners leave the state. But maybe there are other contributing factors too like high taxes, crime and quality of life issues.

 

So as an outsider, I need to ask this question.

 

If the guns laws were to magically turn around tomorrow and be the same as Pennsylvania's. Would you still remain in New Jersey for 1 year, 5 years, 10 years or 15 years or never move? I think a poll is in order. I'd like to see people's responses.

 

Very interesting reponses to my question. First let me say that I get the impression that the citizens of NJ are the problem. While you may say they are not anti gun, neither are they pro gun which is what is needed to pass new less restrictive laws. My new home State of Florida is boasting about hitting a million ccw licenses (they are not permits as we do not need permission) in the next week or two and Illinois is crying that guns will end up in the hands of the wrong people. However, everything can end up in the hands of the wrong people and if we start banning things because of that we lose our freedom out of fear of what the minority will do.

 

Interesting question about moving back. I could move back with a pay increase anytime I wanted to since my company is located there. However I would not move back no matter what the gun laws are at this point unless I had to in order to make a living. My wife and I got a taste of living someplace where we can wear shorts and sandals most of the year and the cost of housing, utilities, property taxes, food, etc. is so much less than it was in NJ that although I took a 20% pay cut to move here, my disposable income is much more. Just not having to deal with snow is a big benefit. We drive around and are surround by farms with cows and horses on both sides of us plus tropical trees and birds that are different than we are used to seeing. It is like living in a place we vacation in. In fact, where we live is a vacation spot and only 60% of the residents are full time like us. There are beautiful beaches all around us and my stress level has decreased so much that I feel like a new person. Let's see, low property taxes, no State or City income taxes, sunshine and warm weather almost year round, beautiful surroundings, friendly people and liberal gun laws. Nah, I would not move back even if they allowed open carry in NJ. Not saying that Florida is ideal as we chose it out of several other places with no snow because we both have family close by. However, I have a few years until full retirement and if all goes well I will be able to stay here until then. However due to the low salaries in Florida, if I was forced to find another job I would have to move but I would try other warm weather States with liberal gun laws before I went back to NJ. The problem is that I am known in my industry in the NY/NJ area so I can more easily get a job there which accounts for me moving in and out of NJ 5 times already.

[Florida CCW]

OK, I live in Florida after living most of my life in NJ. If you buy a gun from a gun store you will have to show your Florida driver's license, even if you have a Florida ccw license. However, private sales do not require any paperwork or performing any checks BUT you are not allowed to "knowingly" sell to a non resident, felon, minor or anyone not legally allowed to buy a firearm under Federal law. So it is sort of don't ask, don't tell.

 

Sadly sometimes gun are sold to the seasonal snowbirds and vacationers that come to Florida. Many of the locals are not well versed on gun laws as they often buy their guns from private sellers where there is no documentation involved, no NICS, or any required proof of residency. They exchange cash for their gun and then do the same when they sell. The responsible and more knowledgeable gun owners will only sell to someone with at least a resident FL driver's license and some of us will only sell if they also have a resident FL ccw license. I do the latter but mostly take a beating and trade in my guns for new ones as I have run into one too many buyers who are not allowed to buy a gun in Florida. Just do not want to deal with that.

 

P.S. here they are CCW Licenses since we do not need permission to carry, just a license to do so. Also note that although there is no registration requirement, FFL dealers are required to keep records and provide them to law enforcement upon demand. However that only works if the gun crime occurred in the same area where the gun was bought from an FFL and even then it requires more manpower than most small town Sheriffs have to shift though thousands of paper documents from a dozen or more local gun dealers. Down here every pawn shop sells guns both new and used and they are as numerous as Starbucks in NYC.

[Can anyone explain the factual reason why NJ cannot get its gun laws changed like most other States?]

Since leaving NJ and living in the land of few gun laws I have discovered that getting a permit to carry a concealed weapon is much more possible in all but a few States. In other States, groups have been able to get new gun laws passed but what is the problem with NJ which seems to be getting more restrictive? Why can the NRA win in other States but not NY or NJ? Is it because most people are staunchly anti gun? What is the real reason?

[Police Captain said I can't Get an FID because of my Misdemeanor (Not Domestic Violence)]

When I talk to young people I try to make them understand that what they do can often affect their adult life. Your case is a good example of the negative consequences of doing things that do not seem like a big deal when we are young and just want to have fun. We all do things when young but most of us are lucky enough not to get caught.

[Shotgun with a Pistol grip]

Wow. When I moved to Florida from NJ 3 years ago the guys in the guns stores around here (5 within 20 minutes drive) kept laughing at me every time I asked them if a firearm I was interested in was legal or not. I was so nervous about it coming from NJ. I was also uncomfortable about transporting loaded firearms in my car. No special license required as you can carry anything that is federally legal in your car, fully loaded, as long as it is covered. A towel will do. When I was in NJ and owned an SUV with no defined trunk I used to disassemble my guns as much as possible and I always put the firearm in a locked case and the ammo in a locked ammo box I kept in the SUV to avoid any problems. I also put other stuff on top of any gun cases so if I was stopped no one could see that I had a firearm on me. I figured that I have never been stopped and asked to search my vehicle so as long as it was out of sight it would not be a problem. I did all that to avoid what happened to you and I really feel bad for what you are going through for just a stupid stock. It is not like a pistol grip makes your shotgun more deadly. I have a feeling that within a few years the rest of the nation will have laws similar to NJ's. The more the media spotlights shootings in malls and other public places without balancing it out with how many lives guns saves, the public will scream for banning those evil looking assault weapons.

[right handed but left eye dominant]

I used to compete every weeekend when I lived in NJ and was getting better and better until I started getting worse. Had some medical issues and figured that was the cause and stopped competing and sold off my shotgun and handgun collection Then I moved to Florida and immediately knew that I needed perscription sunglasses. My eyes are not bad and I used to shoot with just regular protective glasses. However at age 59 I learned that I was left eye dominant. Now, anyone who competes or shoots a lot knows how to determine eye dominance and I was right eyed dominant up until the age of 59. My eye doctor told me that 10% of men will switch eye dominance as they get older and I was one of the few. That explains a lot as always shot with both eyes open and never had the need to reconfirm my eye dominance once I knew what it was originally.

 

So now I cant my pistols a little bit gangster style to the left and have no problem with accuracy. I no longer own any shotguns and my only long gun will be a Ruger 10/22 takedown model which is a xmas gift under the tree. I plan to keep it around as a utility rifle for my hurricane/emergency kit. Comes apart and goes back together real easy and comes with a nice backpack type carry case that will also carry a handgun and scope. I would like to just use the iron sights but will have to wait for xmas before I can try shooting it without a scope. All my previous rifles always had a red dot on them for competition so I really do not know what to expect from iron sights on a rifle. I soo no problem if I keep my left eye closed and just sight with my right. As far as I know, eye dominance is only a big problem if you shoot with two eyes open.

[Carry Permit]

People who live in NJ just have to accept that it aint happening anytime soon, if you want to carry a gun its simple....move out of state. it pisses me off just as much as the next guy. I know there are organizations fighting for our rights but has anything about your average law biding citizen in NJ able to carry,im not trying to be a debbie downer but its just the reality. only hope is that the national reciprocity act would go into affect and even then I bet NJ would not honor non resident permits still leaving us in the dark. its plain and simple only way you are getting one is if you are very very wealthy or you "know" somoene. Why NJ thinks it is different than the 43 or so other states that do issue carry permits I do not know. until we get some real politicians who care about our rights its game over.

 

I am one of those who moved out. Took a big pay cut and moved to Florida. The cost of living (especially the price of homes and land taxes) here is much cheaper and there is no State or City taxes so I have more disposable income even with the reduced salary. For the first two years I was like a kid in a candy store. I quickly got used to carrying a concealed gun every time I left my house. It took me longer to learn which gun/belt/holster combinations worked best for me. There is a long learning curve about which holsters are best for what activities and which kind of clothes work best for you. I never knew that pocket holsters existed until I moved here and now I have about a dozen. In fact I have four drawers full of concealed carry holsters as finding the perfect one is a never ending quest.

 

Aside from the carry issues you need to get some training about using a gun while strapped to the driver's seat in a car, drawing from concealment and dealing with your shirt or other concealing garment. Then there is the whole matter of learning to shoot with guns that you can only get two fingers around the grip and have a lot of recoil due to their low weight. It was a real learning experience and I made a lot of mistakes and wasted a lot of money. However, as someone who has always shot and collected guns for over 40 years and counts shooting and gun related activities as his main hobby, I had to finally do something about the NY/NJ rut I put myself in due to the larger salaries up there. It turns out, since homes and most other things are much cheaper here with no City or State taxes, I actually have more disposable income now than I did when I was making much more up north and am living a lot better now. My fixed costs are less than a third of what they were in NJ and no snow to deal with. Wish you all were here as I understand your frustration. However, for those willing to do it, it is very possible to move here as we are surrounded by so many former NJ residents that we often joke that we moved to Florida to get away from NJ but it seems to have followed me down here. Heck, I even found a cousin that lives less than a mile away from me and an uncle just 15 minutes away and another cousin an hour away. Discovered some old friends also nearby so what I thought was going to be a move to someplace where there was no family or friends turned out to be just the opposite.

[looking for advice on first gun purchase]

I have been a revolver guy for 41 years. I love the simplicity of them, the fact that I do not have to spend a fortune to buy 100 rounds of self defense ammo to test for reliability and that I can put one away loaded and ten years later grab it and know that it will still shoot. I have the Wiley Clapp GP100 and love it. It is my idea of what a fighting revolver should be. I also have a fondness for 1911 guns also as I consider them the best fighting semi autos. I actually have combat experience with the 1911 so it gives me confidence in its ability.

 

I bought a S&W 686 Plus and quite frankly was disappointed in its finish. It was a brushed stainless steel that showed all the brush marks and looked kind of dirty. In fact I asked the gun store owner if it was a used gun. I sold the 686 as there was just nothing in particular I liked about it. Not a bad gun but just not my cup of tea and I like S&W guns. Just not their N frames or current production SS finishes.

 

I own a few 9mm and .380 guns for convenience and comfort for concealed carry. However my two main carry guns are a .357 Airlite J-Frame and Colt Defender 3" .45 acp. I prepare for the possible that is likely and not the unlikely just because it is possible. I have read two stories about people being killed by elephants that escaped from travelling circuses and yet I have not bought an elephant gun.

 

If I was limited to one gun it would be my Wiley Clapp Ruger GP100. I like it for home defense, carry it once in awhile when I feel like taking it out for some fresh air, and enjoy it as a range gun. It is the gun I train new shooters with as it has very mild recoil with .38 specials. Sometimes I will slip in a .357 when training a new shooter and as of yet, no one has noticed. That says something about the gun and recoil being subjective within reason.

[Why did you buy a sub-compact/pocket gun if you can't CCW?]

While I like, own, collect and often carry small guns, a recent poll I did in Florida's main concealed gun forum shows the compact and larger guns are preferred by those who do carry.

 

http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?32947-What-size-gun-do-you-prefer-to-carry

 

 

I should note that the above forum is basically the main and maybe only forum focused on concealed carry in Florida. As such it attract people that are more serious about cc. However, the majority of ccw license holders in Florida rarely carry and are not into guns and shooting as we tend to be. about 99% have never received any defensive training or are aware of the many situations that civilians may find themselves in. At best, most will only shoot at paper targets 3-7 yards away a few times a year if that.

 

Personally I learned what I was told when I moved here. When the time comes when you feel you need to use your gun you will wish that you brought a bigger one. I still like my small guns but when I leave the relative safety of my immediate surroundings I have a 1911 or Glock 19 on my belt.

[FL women flies into Newark with loaded gun in purse]

I really have to differ with your opinion on this. I have carried a gun just about every day for nearly 40 years. I always knew when I had a gun and when I didn't.

 

Not realizing you have a gun with you makes it worthless.

 

The fact that your personal experience is not the same as mine only means that we have different experiences and does not support either position. People post things all the time supporting products or things based on their experience with it. It does not negate anyone else's experience however.

 

Most concealed carriers here do not carry all the time. So not having a gun on them is as normal as having one. I do not think about my cell phone on my hip either and yet when I need to make a phone call I know right where it is. So it is with guns for some of us. Most measure how well a gun carries by how often you are not aware of its presence. There is also a big difference between someone who carries a gun for a living and a civilian. Regardless of your personal experience it is obvious by the many cases of people forgetting about guns in luggage, who are subsequently not fined or arrested, that people are not behaving as your personal experience has indicated that they should.

 

As for my not knowing I had a gun in my fanny pack and thus making it worthless, you are right but then again I did not intend to carry a gun with me so where is the danger as I would not have gone for a gun in any case?

[FL women flies into Newark with loaded gun in purse]

I think that if you know you're going to fly commercial and forget you have a gun in your carryon you're pretty stupid. On the other hand if you forget to take out something like a Swiss Army knife, pair of scissors, letter opener, or something you normally carry in that bag for some use other than a weapon that's understandable.

 

No doubt the prosecutor made at least part of his decision in an effort to keep this out of the press as much as possible. If this woman was a terrorist she stood a good chance of succeeding.

 

When they started TSA they had problems filling the jobs. In order to fill jobs they lowered standards. There were people hired as FAMs that would not qualify for a similar paying job with another Federal agency. In some cases people went to TSA to get out of the agency they were in. Some decided to stay there for a promotion or they were close to retirement. Others left as soon as they could find something better. Many stayed because they lacked the qualifications to go anywhere else. By now some of these people are in management at TSA. If they lowered standards to recruit FAMs how low did they go for screeners?

 

I have a few stories of dealing with TSA many of them from when I was on the job and flew with a gun all the time. This includes 2 FAMs who let me fly from Minneapolis to Newark without being sure I was who I said I was.

 

I tend to agree with you mostly and would have agreed 100% before I moved to Florida. I can understand how that can happen now. I went bike riding today and forgot that I had one of my guns in my fanny pack as it is only 9 oz. It is not illegal to carry it but I did not take my CCW card with me as I should. I also have a gun in the carry on sized luggage bag I throw in my car and my briefcase as I sometimes have to either rush to a local location for a few hours or rush to another city by car for an extended stay due to the nature of my business. I have sometimes forgotten to pack it in the rush to get on the road so now I just keep guns from my collection in the bags I will grab quickly and hit the road. No kids here and never will be so I keep guns all over the house and in various bags ready to go for different purposes like a hurricane bug out bag. After a few months I sometimes look for a gun having forgotten that it is still in my briefcase or luggage. It happens when a gun becomes part of your EDC and you have enough to setup business and emergency bug out bags.

 

I have taken a gun where I was not supposed to because after carrying a gun for over two years I do not even think about it anymore. It is just something I carry along with my phone, wallet, keys, etc.. There are so few places I cannot carry and unless you are used to going to such places you tend to not think about not being able to carry or that you have a gun in your car or bag. So I can now better understand how it can happen. Careless? Yes it is but we are human and subject to all that goes with it.

 

If you are not used to carrying a concealed gun with you every minute of the time you are outside or keep one packed along with your essential travel items in your travel and/or hurricane evacuation bag, I can understand how you cannot understand how someone can forget that they have a gun in their luggage.

[FID and moving out of state]

Quite frankly I forgot all about the FID since none is required here so now I am wondering if my FID would still be valid if I moved back to NJ or if I was supposed to notify the State to cancel it??

[So is my friend screwed now?]

Gotta love those. See something? Say something commercials...

 

Brainless sheep.

 

Reminds me of what the Nazis did.

[Looking to shoot someones M&P Shield (central NJ)]

I owned one when they first came out. IMHO, it is the best of the so called pocket 9's even though too big for pocket carry. I tried the LC9 and did not like the trigger or grip. I sold mine for a profit as they are in great demand here and my Kahr CM9 is smaller and fits in my pocket. The Shield is a concealed carry gun and that is how it should be viewed. Sure it can be used at the range or for home defense but there are much better choices for those uses.

 

As we say down here, it is a carry a lot but shoot little gun. I also owned the Glock 26 several times. I shot it well but it is fat. Better off with the Glock 19 if fat and different grip angle does not bother you. The 19 is a good size for concealed carry, range and home defense. Some around these parts compete with them in IDPA matches. Most people add an extended mag or pinkie extension to the 26 which gives it a grip height close to the 19. If you cannot legally conceal carry you are much better off with a Glock 17 which is well suited for range, home defense and competition. Unless you are LEO looking for an off duty weapon I do not understand why you would want a sub compact gun for range shooting. The Glock can handle a lot of shooting. The M&P may not. For range shooting I use all metal full sized guns as they can take the punishment and soak up the recoil.

[So what do you think the ultimate "status-symbol" gun is?]

As far as status symbols go I learned a lesson early on. A status symbol is not worth a damn if those around you do not know what it is. If you have to tell them it comes off as bragging. Your status symbol should be self explanatory or not worth a dime.

 

Down here we have what are called BBQ guns. They are not our normal carry guns but rather our fancy ones. Mine has changed over time but is currently a S&W 1911 E in a Wilson Combat Sharkskin Holster. Prior to that it was a Sig X5, Sig P229 Scorpion and a Colt SAA revolver. At the range, my Ruger .44 mag Alaskan draws the most attention when shooting heavy magnum loads. People move away from me.

[FL women flies into Newark with loaded gun in purse]

This article mentions a Florida woman flew from Orlando to Newark with a loaded handgun in her purse ......... I would say that perhaps common sense prevailed however the bigger worry is how did the gun get through the airport screeners at Florida?

 

We use TSA screeners here too, that's how.

[Empty Mag]

Are you guys telling me that I can transport unloaded mags in the same case as my rifle?!?! Man!! And, after all these years of transporting my mags in my hubcaps.

 

Hey I am the recruiter for Florida and I welcome you to move here where you can carry your AR-15 with a loaded 100 round mag. in your car as long as it is in a closed case like the typical zippered rifle case. We do not have concealed handgun permits. We have concealed weapon licenses so that if I can conceal an AR on me it is perfectly legal. Want to carry a sword? Just keep it concealed and you can. Come on down, the orange juice is on me. In fact, you can shoot it off the tree with any gun not specifically restricted by the Federal Government.

[trooper shoots bear]

Here is a good article about Black Bears and calibers that jives with what I have been told by experienced handgun hunters. A .44 magnum with the right bullet is more than up to the task of taking down any Black Bear and more controllable than a .460. As far as having to empty your gun, that is more a matter of shot placement than of caliber once you are up to the .41 magnum heavy loads and above. However you can find articles and people to support any opinion on which caliber is best for what. Heck, when I moved here I was shocked to learn that they use .22 caliber rifles or bang sticks to kill gators when legally allowed to do so. Seems that no matter what you shoot them with their nervous system will take a while to react to it so you need to hit a soft spot between and behind their eyes to reach their tiny brains. We call them gators here. You call them Governors there.

[Why are gun laws stricter now than before?]

They say everyone in NJ either has moved to, wants to move, or knows someone who has moved to Florida or North Carolina.

 

We do have some groups, NRA doesn't really do much for us from what I see (though I still gave them my dues.) NJ2AS is doing a lot, but we don't really have the cash/influence to make major changes yet. And here in NJ, it's not right or wrong, but cash and power which decides legislation.

 

I'm assuming you saw they want to ban laser pointers also.

 

You are right as there is a very large population of NJ people here. We often kid at the pool when we meet yet another couple from NJ that we know more people from NJ here than we did when we lived there. It is not uncommon to see a NJ license plate on a car or golf cart as we are in a golf cart community and people like to put their old plates on them. In fact we probably see more than one NJ plate every time we are on the road.

 

Would laser sights be illegal too?

[Why are gun laws stricter now than before?]

Also in the past 20 years lots of NJ gun owners have moved out of New Jersey if they had the opportunity, if a job opened up out of state.

 

Each gun owner who left NJ in the past 20 years not only is one less vote but also is one less good example to sway neighbors' perceptions as to what a gun owner is.

 

Hence the image many people in NJ have of gun owners is the image that Hollywood has fabricated - a suspicious person, someone to be afraid of. The neighbor who target shoots and is a nice person with a nice family no longer lives next to them. They have no concrete example to be a counter-example to the propaganda they see on television. To them a gun owner is someone who flips out and shoots his boss.

 

It will be a struggle here to get our rights back.

 

I can understand that because I took a major paycut to move here. I just got tired of the high property taxes, corrupt politicians, and gun control laws. I feel liberated now. Two of my good friends also moved out of NJ, as did two of my cousins, in-laws and acquaintances.

[why are guns so over price!]

Heck, for that price you cannot even get a decent gun here in Florida. My cousin went through the same sticker shock with his first gun. Ended up with a Ruger SR9 at $400 after first wasting $300 on a smaller gun which he finds hard to shoot. You can get a .380 LCP online for $289. Keltec makes inexpensive guns. Their P11 and PF9 are around $300 or so. As I just posted elsewhere, I think a part of the problem is that since NJ does not allow concealed carry, most guns stores stock home defense guns which tend to be larger than the many subcompacts and compact guns sold here. If the gun is for self defense you have to ask yourself what is your life worth? If the gun is for the range, $250 will not get you a gun that will handle a lot of rounds through it.

 

However I have seen few, and I mean very few, used revolvers for that price. You may be able to get a Kel-tec .32. If I were you I would think seriously about saving up for a better gun because I can guarantee you that you will not like any gun that you buy for $250, especially a used gun. I teach people to shoot here and am often asked to recommend guns which most ignore and end up buying by price or what looks cool them. Most regret it and either end up buying another gun or putting their first gun away never to be shot again. Some will say that any gun is better than no gun and that is true but not necessarily if that gun is a semi auto. In a defensive situation the presence of a gun greatly escalates the encounter and a gun that does not go bang when the trigger is pulled can get you killed where otherwise you may just be robbed. If you want to target shoot look for an inexpensive .22 but even those are around $300 plus tax and whatever fees you have up there.

[Anyone into compact or subcompact handguns?]

NJ was the first place I lived where I could own a gun and since that gun was for either home defense or the range, my choices were always fullsized guns. When I moved and got my concealed carry permit I found that I knew nothing about carry guns, gun belts and defensive ammo for smaller guns. It was a learning experience and I wasted a lot of money buying the wrong guns, holsters and belts. By the end of the first year and after many purchases, I learned what works for me and discovered the wonderful world of concealed carry guns.

 

Now I even have a tiny NAA Mini Revolver that I can hide in my closed fist. Several guns are under 14 oz. and are regularly carried in my pocket with ease. Heck I did not even know pocket holsters existed before moving here and never gave a thought to IWB ones. Gun belts were for competition only but after arriving here I had to buy one that I could wear with my regular clothes that did not look tactical. I now know where on my belt to carry my gun for the most comfort and accessibility, how to get to it under my shirt, how to access a gun while strapped to a car seat and all sorts of different things that I never had to consider before. I learned a lot more about ballistics than just making major or minor for a competition. I use different ammo for short barreled guns than I do for longer ones. I must admit that it has been a fun, albeit expensive, learning experience. I am now in love with small subcompact guns and my full sized 1911 and evern compact Glock 19 seem larger than they did when I lived in NJ and that was all I knew.

 

Even in the many gun stores and Pawn Shops that sell guns, the majority of shelf space is taken up with small guns, especially pocket ones. I have gone through 28 such guns, buying, selling and trading them until I ended up with the few I now own and carry regularly. My favorite is an 11.5 ounce Scandium/Titanium S&W J-Frame. Even loaded it feels lighter than the toy guns I used to play with as a child. I never knew such things existed before. My newest 1911 .45 has a 3" barrel and fits in my front pocket. Did you know they have Jeans made especially to carry guns? The front pockets are like adjustable holsters. In fact, I have a whole collection of bags and clothing items wtih holsters in them. I even have a bag to hold my gun when I go bike riding. It is as if a whole new dimension of the gun world has been opened to me.

 

I have always thought of what I would do if I had to move back to NJ. I would probably sell off all my small guns and just keep my full sized 1911 and Glock 19. The rest are not really suitable for range use and I no longer collect what I cannot use. All my guns are working guns either for carry, car or home defense. I would truly hate to give up these pocket rockets in .357, 9mm and .45 acp but a big part of their allure for me is that I can carry them with me much like a fine watch that you can acutally wear and enjoy daily. I am currently into ordering custom made holsters in exotic leathers. After all, when attending formal affairs you need a suitable holster to feel dressed up properly.

 

Here is what followed me home last weekend and what I carry in my Pocket, IWB and OWB.

 

[Why are gun laws stricter now than before?]

Damn good question! I would guess that a lot of it has to do with the dominance of liberal politicians in this area, plus the long-standing history of an unarmed populace due to the oft cited excuse about "population density."

 

The only reason liberal politicians dominate is because they are elected so they must reflect a liberal population.

[Why are gun laws stricter now than before?]

I moved to Florida from NJ after living there a good part of my adult life. What a difference in gun laws and influence of gun owners here compared to NJ. Down here politicians thread lightly when it comes to gun control. The right to bear arms is taken very seriously by residents of this State and anyone runing for State office has little chance of being elected if they favor more gun control. This got me thinking about my old hometown of NJ. Why does NJ keep electing anti gun Governors and other State/local officials? The rest of the US has moved to a pro gun stance with most States being Shall issue States. Now I see that you can only buy one gun a month which was not in effect when I lived there so it seems that NJ is going in the opposite direction from the rest of the the country. When I first moved to NJ from NYC I felt as if I was in gun heaven since I now could buy guns and join a local gun club were I shot every weekend. Now after living here and becoming more aware of gun rights in other States, what I had in NJ does not seem to be that good after all. A gun for home defense and the ability to transport it unloaded and locked up to a gun range pales in comparason to what most States allow.

 

It is not as if Florida has a majority of its population that carry or own guns; we are a minority compared to the total State population and yet we have a major influence on gun laws. We have some well organzied groups supported by lawyers who volunteer their time to challenge any and all infringements on our 2nd Amendment rights. The NRA also provides support and legal help when needed. No matter how many actually own guns or concealed carry permits here, the general population supports concealed carry and 2nd amendment rights. Other States have been successful in revising State gun laws so why can't NJ? Is the gun owning citizens of the Garden State too small or ineffective to make changes to the gun laws? Just what the heck is the problem that gun owners in other States seem to have been able to solve?