carguy3j

My conscience is clear. I KNOW I should have no problem owning firearms. What I didn't know was if there was some arcane, vague "trap" in the law that would get me. I don't think that is the case. Between my own opinion, and that of several others who have posted, I think I should be ok. As for the FPID, again, I know I meet the letter of the law. My concern is whether or not the police will do the right thing and give me the card, or if they will pull the typical government nonsense, and use a vague loophole to deny me, because of THEIR paranoia and dislike of armed citizens. Nothing "shady". If the law clearly prohibited me from getting the gun, then that would be the end of the discussion. But, if there is a way to do it without asking for permission from our "keepers", or paying a fee to do so, then why not? I don't plan on "carrying" anywhere other then for the purposes allowed anyway (to/from range, gunsmith), so why go through the hassle of an FPID; especially since I can't afford it right now? On that "180 days" clause, read it carefully. If I use that provision, a.) I am declaring myself that I believe that I am not qualified to posses a firearm. NOT something any sane person should do! and b.) the gun must be held in the possession of law enforcement during the 180 day period. Yeah, not gonna happen... Yes, it does have sentimental value. My grandfather and I would "hang out" when I was little while he cleaned his guns and would educate me on proper firearms handling, and this one, he would let me "play" with. I must have dry fired it a hundred times.( I don't think he even knew what this really was, as he had always referred to it as a generic .22. I had no idea until I started googling the ID marks on it a couple of weeks ago.) The handguns I could only see/handle when he was standing there. This one I was allowed to "mess around" with on my own. Of course there was no ammo anywhere around (it was locked up), and it was made VERY clear that I should never go anywhere near the ammo. Of course, times were very different back then too.... :-) So, yes it does have sentimental value. Its about the only "thing" I will have to remember him by. My mother died about 6 years ago, and we (my sister and I, as well as my grandparents) lost all of her "mementos",etc.. when my jerk of a stepfather let the house go into foreclosure, with everything in it, and just moved to the other side of the country without telling anybody, so I don't want to lose this. If it goes with my other relative, because I wait too long to take it, I'll never see it again. So, anyway, I guess the matter is pretty much settled, unless someone feels they have something substantial or new to add. Obviously there will be differing OPINIONS, but if you have some actual cases/outcomes/laws to cite that could change this one way or the other, then I'm all ears. I also wouldn't mind some suggestions on doing the actual modifications I talked about, where to get parts,etc.. Thanks everyone.

But,depending on what the old pd says, couldn't they pull the "not in the public interest" card? It seems they find a way to deny people, as they please; even if it is through "losing" paperwork", etc.. No, nothing like that. It was just a report taken from that "citizen". It never went any further then that. But, again couldn't they use the "public interest" clause if they don't like what they hear? I don't known about "it can't hurt". If you are denied once, ever, don't you then have to disclose and explain that pretty much forever after on any other firearms related applications, even in other states? Also, I can't wait months for a FPID. If I don't take the rifle soon, my uncle will, and it will be gone.

A.) The money involved. I'm broke at present. B.) It could cause me a big problem. I'm sure that I am NOT "disqualified", as defined by the law. However, I've been at my current address for only a few years, which means my current town could very well contact the PD at my prior address. That might be bad. I was never arrested, or even involved in anything criminal. But, I had frequent zoning issues with the town; usually enforced by the pd.I considered all but one,maybe two, of the officers in town to be giant constitution hating, overgrown high school bully, douchebags, and I made sure they knew exactly how I felt about them, and most of their municipal mafia co-workers across the state. Someone I had a financial dispute also filed a false report claiming I threatened them, and LE. I was only questioned once, briefly, but the report is there nontheless. Basically I hated the town officials and the PD, and they were happy to see me leave town. I think it would be a good idea to put several more years between those events, and a FPID application, so they will be less likely to contact my former town, or alternatively, so that that town will have forgotten about me by then.

Nah. If it was original, or mostly so, then I would leave it alone. But its not. I don't want to spend hundreds, or even thousands to make it into something I don't like. Stock they look awkward and gangly. It looks dated, and reminds me of a musket. I don't want a wall hanger or museum piece. Please elaborate. What do I need to be aware of? I would most likely pay a gunsmith to do this, but I'd like to know what they run into, and charge me for.

Well, my magazine is already missing, with the mag well covered. These rifles were never issued with large numbers of spares, as the magazine (10 round) was never intended to be routinely removed. The rifle was intended to be reloaded with 5 round stripper clips. Consequently, replacement magazines, while "out there" can cost $75-$80 each. I have read that many people have had feeding problems with ANY magazines that were not originally issued with that specific rifle; requiring some minor machining/fitting anyway. And that's if I stay with .303. If I convert to .308 / 7.62x51mm NATO, then I would need custom magazines anyway, as, again, I have read that many people have experienced feed failure trying to use .308 in in .303 magazines So, I can start off trying to track down an original 10 round magazine, which will be expensive, and require custom work anyway. Which would also destroy a somewhat rare original part. Or I can start off with a modern, easily and relatively cheaply obtained high capacity magazine, and then go from there. Yes, I suppose 15 rounds is "enough", but if I can get more for the same money, or less (as I imagine NJ specific mags are more expensive then "standard" factory mags), then why not? Plus, I just think a longer higher capacity magazine looks "cooler" Also, in a "doomsday" / "zombie" scenario, having more rounds in the gun can't be a bad thing......

It was actually very common for them to be "sporterized" in the '50s and '60s. At the time they were literally swimming in these things, as there were tons of military surplus available. In the original military form they were somewhat "cumbersome" for civilian use, for typical hunting, or even sport shooting. They were also pretty heavy. There were a number of companies doing some good quality commercial conversions, "Parker Hale" typically being recognized as the best. However, there were plenty home "hack jobs" as well. From what I understand the commercial conversions are now seen as collectibles in there own right, whereas the "bubba"-fied , not so much..... They do provide a good supply of already hacked rifles for use in modern "conversions" though. This is what it looks like "stock" as issued: The furniture on mine is cut just forward of the front sling ring. The barrel is cut about halfway between stock length and that front sling mount. Also, as I said, my magazine is missing, with the mag well plugged/plated over. Its roughly this length, but otherwise stock. (minus the magazine and front sight) What I WANT, is something more like this: (minus the suppressor and the funky 1911 magazine adapter but with a quad rail/barrel shroud, as well as a "meaner" looking scope) Or maybe even something like this:

Thank you for the response. I realize I am a new member, but I have read enough threads here, and seen your posts enough to know you know your stuff. Would you suggest that I get any paperwork / letter from my grandfathers estate, "just in case"? I assume those restrictions would be transporting directly to/from range, gunsmith, home, sanctioned match ,etc....? On the mag issue, just to play a bit more what if, lets say I did want to adapt a FN-FAL mag, or use an AK or AR mag,etc.... Something that would otherwise be illegal, due to working in a semi-auto. If I were to PERMANENTLY modify that mag, so it could NEVER work in the original application/any semi-auto or anything other then my bolt-action rifle, would that magazine then be legal? Or is it a case of once illegal, never redeemable? I wouldn't think so, since it is acceptable to permanently reduce the capacity for use IN semi auto's, so wouldn't a perm. modification that makes it un-usable in a semi-auto be the same idea? On the FID issue, If I were to do one of the .45ACP conversion that are out there for this rifle, then w/o an FID, I could never buy ammo, as it is handgun ammo. Correct? Not that I really have any interest in going that direction, but I just wanted to check. Will I have difficulty buying .303, or .308 / 7.62x51mm NATO ammo w/o an FID? In person- in state? In person -Out of State (PA)? Mail order/Internet? What about various other parts/pieces, and/or scopes? Will people refuse to sell to me w/o an FID, even though it is not required by law for those items? Thanks

Copied directly from page 5/6 of the 13:54 on the NJ SP website: (bolding/color mine) ""Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm" It seems to me that what is "pretty clear" is that a magazine MUST have BOTH a capability of holding more then 15 rounds of ammunition AND be capable of feeding those rounds into a SEMI-AUTO firearm. If it can't do BOTH, then it seems that the law does NOT define it as a high capacity magazine. My specific interest at the moment is a Lee Enfield No4 Mk1* It is a bolt action rifle, originally equipped with a 10rd magazine. I have seen .45ACP conversion kits for these, which use standard 1911 magazines, as well as conversions using AK, AR,etc.... magazines. Now, in all of these cases, you're screwed if you have a magazine over 15 rounds, as they CAN be used in any number of semi-auto firearms, even though this specific rifle is not. However, what I proposed is a magazine over 15 round capacity with permanent external modifications to ensure that it could never be used in anything other then the specific unique bolt-action receiver it is designed for. Meaning, they could stand up in court and try to put in a semi-auto firearm till they're arms get tired. It would be a case of trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Obviously, the external mods would need to be numerous and truly unique, so they couldn't just claim a quick whack of the hammer, a few minutes with some 80 grit could make it usable in a semi-auto gun.

Can any one suggest exactly what kind of documentation I may need/want from my grandmother and/or my grandfather's "estate"? Is a simple letter stating that his estate transfers the gun, referenced by serial number/description enough? Should it include some sort of decleration such as "In keeping with the declared wishes of the deceased....." so as to be considered "willed" vs a sale by the estate? Would any such letter need to be notarized?

What about a 30 round magazine (or 50rnd for that matter) in a bolt action rifle? As long as the magazine can NOT be used in any known semi auto rifle, wouldn't that be perfectly legal? You could even make the mag and receiver a unique matched pair, such that the magazine will never fit in anything but your one specific receiver. Perhaps some permanently attached(welded) "rails" on the outside of the magazine, "keyed" to matching slots in the mag well/receiver? The rifle could still accept other mags, but the mag will not work in any other rifle; certainly not in any semi auto.

Can you point me towards the relevant statute? I have read that IF a particular magazine COULD also be used in a semi-auto rifle (or a pistol I guess), then the magazine itself would have to be NJ compliant . What is it, 15 rounds? However, in the case of the Lee Enfield No4, the magazine is rather "unique" in both its appearance and function. It will not fit in any other rifle, or handgun; certainly nothing semi-auto. Also, although the magazine ( the original magazines are 10 round) is technically removable, it was not designed or intended to be routinely removed. The magazine is intended to remain in the receiver, and the rifle is reloaded via 5 round "stripper clips". In fact, when originally issued, in WW2, the magazines were chained and locked to the trigger guard, only unit Sgt.'s had the keys to remove them. I'm not sure how that would affect the legal ramifications now. If I were to re-chamber it to .308, I would need custom mags anyway, so I could have them machine in a unique way, so they would never fit in any other rifle at all, let alone something semi-auto. The could have some funky groove or bulge so that they would only go in my one specific receiver. Might this change things? EDIT: I just copied this from page 5/6 of NJ 13:54 " "Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly there from into a semi-automatic firearm"

In regards to the length, as I stated in the post, I measured it, and it is WELL over the legal minimum, for both barrel length, and OAL. So, no worries there. As for the FID issue, I think you're mis-reading the statute: N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.13 Firearms passing to heirs or legatees (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of this subchapter concerning the transfer, receipt or acquisition of a firearm, a permit to purchase a handgun or a firearms purchaser identification card shall not be required for the passing of a firearm upon the death of an owner thereof to their heir or legatee, whether the same be by testamentary bequest or by the laws of intestacy. A person so acquiring ownership may retain the firearm if he or she meets the requirements of N.J.A.C. 13:54- 1.5 and 1.6. (b) If an heir or legatee is not qualified to acquire a firearm, he or she may retain ownership of the firearm for the purpose of sale for a period of 180 days, which period may be extended by the chief of police or the Superintendent. During such period the firearm must be placed in the custody of the chief of police or Superintendent. © In the case of assault firearms or machine guns disposition shall be in accordance with N.J.A.C. 13:54-5. "If he/she meets the requirements of NJAC 13:54-1.5 and 1.6 - Ok, so what are those? N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.5 Prerequisites for a permit to purchase handgun or a firearms purchaser identification card (a) A permit to purchase a handgun, or a firearm purchaser identification card, shall not be issued to any person: 1. To any person who has been convicted of any crime, or a disorderly persons offense involving an act of domestic violence as defined in section 3 of P.L. 1991, c. 261 (N.J.S.A. 2C:25- 19), whether or not armed with or possessing a weapon at the time of such offense; 2. To any drug dependent person as defined in section 2 of P.L. 1970, c. 226 (N.J.S.A. 24:21- 2), to any person who is confined for a mental disorder to a hospital, mental institution or sanitarium, or to any person who is presently a habitual drunkard; 3. To any person who suffers from a physical defect or disease which would make it unsafe for him or her to handle firearms, to any person who has ever been confined for a mental disorder, or to any alcoholic unless any of the foregoing persons produces a certificate of a medical doctor or psychiatrist licensed in New Jersey, or other satisfactory proof, that he or she is no longer suffering from that particular disability in such a manner that would interfere with or handicap him or her in the handling of firearms; to any person who knowingly falsifies any information on the application form for a handgun purchase permit or firearms purchaser identification card; 4. To any person under the age of 18 years for a firearms purchaser identification card and to any person under the age of 21 years for a permit to purchase a handgun; 5. To any person where the issuance would not be in the interest of the public health, safety or welfare; 6. To any person who is subject to a restraining order issued pursuant to the Prevention of Domestic Violence Act of 1991, P.L. 1991, c. 261 (N.J.S.A. 2C:25-17et seq.) prohibiting the person from possessing any firearm; 7. To any person who as a juvenile was an adjudicated delinquent for an offense which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a crime and the offense involved the unlawful use or possession of a weapon, explosive or destructive device or is enumerated in subsection d. of section 2 of P.L. 1997, c. 117 (N.J.S.A. 2C:43-7.2); or 8. To any person whose firearm is seized pursuant to the Prevention of Domestic Violence Act of 1991, P.L. 1991, c. 261 (N.J.S.A. 2C:25-17 et seq.) and whose firearm has not been returned. N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.6 Exception for physical disability, mental disorder or alcoholism A permit or identification card may be issued to a person who had previously suffered from a physical defect or disease, or mental disorder, or was an alcoholic if the applicant provides a certificate of a medical doctor or psychiatrist licensed in New Jersey, or other satisfactory proof that he or she is no longer suffering from that particular disability in such a manner that it would interfere with or handicap him or her in the handling of firearms. It sounds to me like if they wanted to say, "you can have them for 180 days, then you MUST have an FID or get rid them", then that is what they would have said. Instead it sounds to me, like as long as I meet all of the conditions in 13:54-1.5 an 1.6, I can keep the gun, even w/o an FID

I posted the below on another forum, but I haven't got much, in the way of anything helpful, so I thought I would try here: 1.) Ok, so my grandfather recently passed away. He had a small collection of handguns and a couple rifles. He had owned them for many, many years, and none of them were registered or otherwise documented, nor did he have any permits/FID, as they were all acquired long before any of that was needed. So, "officially" they don't exist. All but one bolt-action rifle has already left the state, with another relative. The one I plan to keep is a 1944 Lee Enfield bolt action rifle. I do NOT have an FID. But my understanding is that inheriting a firearm is an exception to the need for an FID, and therefor legal for me to take possession w/o one, according to "N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.13 Firearms passing to heirs or legatees" As I don't feel I would be disqualified under N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.5 and 1.6., it would seem that, in theory, I should have no problem. Does anyone hear, who has an educated, qualified opinion on this have any thoughts or objections to my understanding of this? Also, assuming that the law does in fact say I can obtain/keep this rifle w/o an FID, does anyone foresee other difficulties for me later, by not having an FID? By this I mean, what kind of paperwork DO I need, if I am transporting this rifle to/from a range/gunsmith,etc...? Should I get a letter from my grandfathers estate, giving me the rifle? What about buying ammo? I know this rifle was originally built in .303 British (It is a Longbranch No4 MK 1*) My grandfather always called it a .22, but it does not appear to have been re-chambered to my unskilled eye. He obtained it from his brother, a long, long time ago. I don't think he ever fired it, in the 30+ years I have been alive, and I don't think my grandfather really knew too much about it, so it very well could be the original .303. As .303 is NOT used in handguns, I don't see any reason to have legal difficulty in buying ammo. Am I wrong? In any case, I am kind of leaning towards having it re-chambered in .308 / 7.62x51 NATO anyway, for cheaper/more available ammo. 2.) While I have a great respect for items of historical significance, this rifle has already had the barrel and furniture chopped. (yes, I measured it and it is well above legal minimum length) Honestly, it was done somewhat half-assed, many years ago; most likely by my grandfather's brother, sometime between WW2 and, say, '50s/'60s, when these rifles were dirt cheap and plentiful. I don't think the "sporterizing" was ever finished, as the barrel was cut with a hacksaw, and the front sights were never replaced. The mag well was also "plugged" , making it a single shot. The only thing, other then legal issues, that might hold me back from doing it the way I want is the fact that the action is in such pristine condition, seeing as it has been stored reasonably well, and hasn't been fired in 30+ years. I COULD restore it with a replacement barrel, correct original magazine (about $80/each), and replacement unmodified front furniture from a "parts" gun. However, there would be so many mis-matched serial numbered pieces, that the restoration would be cosmetic only. A true collector would never consider it original without the matching mag and barrel. Even the front sight/bayonet lugs would have originally had the guns serial number on them, and those are long gone. My intention would be to go in a more "tactical" direction, with black poly furniture, re-chamber to .308, possible pistol grip, picatinny rails, re-install a magazine, etc.. It would be neat to have a 1000yd sniper rifle, which these guns are known to be capable of. My question(s) are: Since it is a bolt-action, are there still restrictions on the so-called "evil features" which make a semi-auto into a banned "assault rifle", or does the bolt-action mean pretty much anything else is now fair game? (pistol grip, threaded barrel, folding stock,etc...) What about magazine capacity? Again, does the fact that it is A.) a rifle, and not a hangun, and B.) Bolt-action, NOT semi-auto get me a "free pass" on that? What would the magazine capacity be limited to, in NJ? I don't intend to hunt with it, but is there a different limit, if taken into the woods for hunting, vs just general limits in the state (ie, target shooting)? 3.) If I did decide to get an FID, I foresee a problem, regarding the references. I don't have any. I simply don't have any close personal friends. I know people, but nobody I'd really want to get involved in this. Last time I checked, the constitution doesn't say that the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to "loners", or that close personal friends are a pre-requisite to exercising your 2nd amendment rights. There is nothing stopping them from doing a criminal/mental health background check. If I pass that, and I should, then I see no reason why they should be able to deny me my constitutional right to firearms, simply because I choose not to socialize to a degree acceptable to "them" I also don't really want my temp agency, NYC based employer getting any letters/calls from the PD about me buying guns. Could I just put "unemployed" on the form? As I said, it is only temp work, as needed. So, when they have no work for me, I'm not "employed". I can go weeks with no work from them, sometimes longer. So, has anybody been able to get an FID, without the personal references; maybe by putting "none" or "not available" on the form? Any advice on this? What if I DID use family members, was upfront about it, and said, these are the people who know me. Its all I have; talk to them or no one.