Shane45

The real key is learning who to give weight to on any forum. Lots of wanna be experts everywhere. I know the creds of a few over on M4c and can tell you they are worth listening to. Also some here, and a metric ton on the hide. Ya just gotta know which is which. Unfortunatly when you are new that is hard to figure out when you dont know what you dont know. But if you read enough it often becomes clear.

"If you do alot of schools and drills you may need something from a premium manufacturer" This is the key differentiator right here. A rifle that will see light use here and there, yeah I think you can get away with fairly little, especially if you have no intention of relying on it. However, I find the best people to ask are the instructors. The jist from a conversation with Pat Rogers on the topic. His take is that the higher round counts in a short period of time quickly exposes weakness in a rifle. Some brands have a track record for these exposures. Personally I want a rifle that is known for being able to take the abuse even if I dont subject it to said abuse regulerly. In my mind its kinda the point for rifles in this catagory.

Man when it comes to practicality the SRS cant be beat! But there were a few things about it I was having trouble with. One was launching my glasses down range if I didnt pull my head up off the stock a little bit when I cycled the bolt. The other was the trigger. I just couldnt warm up to the oddity of the trigger. Overall a good stick but... the barrel swap thing was good on paper but the conversions got so expensive it lost some of that cost effectiveness. So I went back to the trusty 308. If I want a boomer, I build another seperate rifle later. Inbound is a AIAW and an EMC

So ColdShot, by the looks of your rig I think its safe to say my assumptions that you were looking for something more on the precision side were accurate?

HA! None are BR guns! All are precision tactical rifles. I dont know what BR guns weigh but if I had to guess, they are +20 lbs. My 308 inbound with glass I think is going to be right at 17lbs. My DTA was 16lbs but the scope weighed less. I pretty much only shoot them prone from the bipod

Lunker, its all relative The LTR I owned was the very last sub 10 lb bolt gun I have owned. Since then my bolt guns have hovered in the 16lb and up range.

MRAD is the way to go IMO. To many MOA's in MOA Only 1 kind of MRAD. I do like the TMCQ ret. I await your range report :mail:

Did you get the TMCQ ret?

DISCLAIMER! I am now talking about what I want for ME! I sold off the Elcan Specter DR. Trying to decide what I want for my rifle thats inbound. I want something low in weight. Spent all that freeking money to keep weight down, dont want to make it fat again with an optic. I like 1x4 optics but due to the rifles accuracy and range, I want more mag. US Optics 1.5X6 is just too heavy. Looking at Swaro Z6I Brt but dont have any real intel on it yet. My criteria: Low weight Mildot ret Daylight usable illum center dot or cross hair precision cross hair when dot is off Robust repeatability MIL/MIL FFP I thought about a Acog TA11 and a red dot on a 45 but I shoot practical multigun not 3 gun. That means we sometimes shoot week side barracade so Im not sure how I could use the RDS on a right side 45 mount and I just dont dig the chin weld thing with the piggy back style mount....

I havent had hands on any PST's but the word is 2.5X10 = good, 4x16 = meh, 6x24 = very good. On the 1x4... I think Id save a few bucks more and get the SWFA 1x4. Read a few side by sides and really like the ret in the SWFA. MY BIGGEST HISITATION is I just dont know if I could bring myself to buy something named super sniper!!!

Well when my two new aquisitions arrive, we have GOT to get together!

Vlad, I do understand your position. But I asked for budget and got no reply from the OP, so when asked I picked a solid mid level, mid priced optic. With that being said and having discussed optics with many here, it is no secret I have a buy once cry once mentality particulerly toward optics. I am of the opinion to eliminate equipment so you always know YOU are the problem. I have seen so many go down the road of cheap optics to come back to me and say, I have now spent more because I went cheap to begin with and still ended up buying the scope you recomended when the cheap ones failed or didnt do xyz. Im not stuck on brands, Im stuck on features and capabilities and which scopes have the fewest compromises. For those playing along, there are many considerations for optics other than the ones we have mostly focussed on in this thread. The considerations run the entire gambit of robustness, repeatability, FFP/SFP, weight, Chromatic Abheration etc etc etc. Optics discussions are as DEEP as you are willing to chase down the rabbit hole. The more features you require and the greater the capability, the more you will pay which gets right back to what I said earlier, figure out what criteria needs to be met and what compromises you are willing to make.

Look Slav, Im going to give it one last go to set it on the right track. Braggert windbag, look elsewhere, it aint me. Its simple really. You can only talk about optics by actually using them. Ive used a lot of optics, its part of my JOB! As I said before but doubt you read, the list wasnt a pissing contest, it was to illustrate a spectrum of optics I can speak to. And all but two in that list are personally owned. If I listed everything we have at the shop....people would be put to sleep. I only listed two shop pieces because I have used them enough to include them. The thing I think you are also missing is the time I have given to help MANY here and elsewhere on the topic of optics. The FACT is I have recomended the TR24 MANY times here when the criteria was right for it. I have recomended the K dot elsewhere for the same reasons. But of its going to boil down to if the K dot can be as precise as the scopes I mention for the type of shooting they are intended for, we are never going to agree. I believe Jerry Miculek (who came in 3rd at 2010 Ft Benning 3 gun) uses a US Optics scope BTW.

Hehe paid Eric a visit I see Bullzeye

I loved my LTR! It was very handy. It would be my recomendation too.

Vlad, I think you are the one making assumptions. You assume I am disparaging the holdover method described. What I said is it is not the same! That is not a dispersion cast in anyones direction. Its simply that they are different. What I can say is that it is NOT precise enough for me for precision shots. Its fine for combat accuracy but that is not what I always do. I think you and Slav shoot very much the same disciplines I do. But what we do is not of the greatest importance to the OP. As I stated time and again, the way he worded his post gave me a strong imprssion that he wanted more precision and may have no interest in close distance targetes, especially since he didnt mention it. So do you really find a $1200 nighforce to be an unreasonable suggestion given this criteria? A quote from the ops second post in this thread: "For now, limitation of NJ ranges = 200 yds at Fort Dix but soon enough will find me elsewhere with longer ranges." My fourth post in this thread: "Well...since cold shot hasnt weighed in with further clarification, Im going to continue with my assumptions. Since its a 20" AR and he stated mid/long range I am going to make the assumption that he is looking for a little more precision than minute of man. Also since he specifically did not mention close range I am going to assume he is not looking to "multi roll" his rifle. In this catagory a Nighforce 2.5X10 is an excellent option." Please indicate to me where I suggested a $2k optic? Look guys, Im not looking to have a pissing contest with either of you. I would not assume anything as to what you have used but I dont see a list so I can only go by what you have talked about. I didnt make the list to further said pissing contest, it was more to point out that I have a fair amount of experience with many optics. This is why many that are on this board have sought my advice specifically on optics. When I spoke of high end optics, I thought I made it clear that these are my preferences. I may shoot my rifles for combat accuracy 90% of the time, however I require it to be capable of precision accuracy. The rifle AND the optic have to be capable. K Dots, TR's and frankly even the Elcan Specter lacked the ability for precision for me. The one I found unique was the S&B because when the dot is off, you have a nice precise reticle. Turn it on and you have a big fat red dot thats daylight usable. Best bargain in this catagory, 800 bucks gets you an SWFA SS 1X4 with a unique retical. Looks very promising. If S$B fixes the eye relief on their 1.1X8 Short dot, I will likely buy one of those next. But the pre production unit I played with had way to unforgiving an eye box!

One more thing guys, what have you two run besides the K dot? Not what you read about on the internet, what have you actually used? Heres my list: Aimpoints in EVERY flavor. Trijicon TR21R Acog TA01NSN Acog TA33H-G Eotech 556.A65 Eotech 553.A65 US Optics SN4 Chevron US Optics SN4S JPJ1 Ret US Optics SN3 1.8X10 Elcan Specter DR 1X4 S&B SHort Dot 1x4 US Optics 1.5X6

You two clutch to what you know with no consideration for what else is out there. You two are stuck in 3 gun land. Good for you, if that is what works for you. But there are other things out there. It doesnt, or shouldnt take a rocket scientist to understand levels of precision. If your running a 2 moa or 4 moa dot, you can only be so precise. A 4 moa dot is covering 8 inches of the target at 200 so how precise can you be? There are getting to be to many points to address. so Ill hit only a few. Minute of man is usually taken to mean you can put rounds center mass on man sized targets usually within 200 yds. I would take tactical precision shooting to mean holding 1.5 moa or less out to significantly greater distance. Benchrest is stacking holes on holes. I dont shoot benchrest so I have no input to offer on that discipline. Nor does it interest me. Not sure why Benchrest was brought up, I dont see the correlation. Your observations on AR accuracy are your own. Mine are different and largely based on what mine can do. Do I shoot federal Gold Medal Match when Im shooting multigun? Hell no, why would I. Its not needed, bulk is accurate enough for that. But when I want to make precision shots from the same rifle, I do. Creating your own holdovers and the laundry list of where to aim IS NOT THE SAME as having BDC stadia matched to a specific bullet drop. Your dickie comment regarding foward rolls accomplished what? The course of fire wasnt soemthing I made up in my head, it was the actual coarse of fire from the last multigun match I shot. 1st target was a triangle at 5 yds. If you didnt know your optic offset, you were not going to hit it. The next target from the same spot was three positions on a barricade on a 100 yd steel plate. Next was to move up and shoot frome a barracade at 75 then 50 then on lateral move. So lets be clear on the dismissal part. I dismissed NOTHING, I only explained the abscence on those optics. I dont feel the need for turrets on an Acog BECAUSE it has a BDC reticle. Get it? I thought I made it clear earlier in this thread but clearly it needs further explaining. I believe the OP is after more precision. I said that from the beginning. I also said that is my own pursuit on certain rifles but my main pursuit is the do it all multi role rifle. I want the rifle that can run and gun AND be precise at greater distance. For me that is the holly grail of rifles. To Slav and Vlad, when you can do this with your K-Dots, let me know, I will go buy one. This is 5 rounds at 100 yds with Corbon factory ammo. No retry's. No mulligans. It was 5 shots, and 5 shots only. Optic was a nightforce. Group measured .346 moa CTC.

It is my understanding that the real problem with the Glock KB's was with the disconnector. It is what really allowed the OOB firing. It also makes perfect sense to me. (edited to add that Glock does not call it a disconnector but it performs the same function as a disconnector) I am decidedly NOT a glock armorer so I dont know for sure what Glock calls it.

Something I have said repeatedly on here but its worth it so here it is again. Firearms and ESPECIALLY OPTICS are all about compromises. Define the role, pick the compromises that best fit and that you can live with and pick accordingly.

Guys, you are confusing roles. Minute of man vs a precision shot. SHTF is minute of man. the K dot is a minute of man optic. So your comment "As opposed to "serious work" for when SHTF?" makes no sence to me at all. In fact it gives me the impression your not tracking. 2 moa dot is a no go for precision right there. The reason the Mepta and TR are ok for games like 3 gun is because they have VERY few if any truly precision shots. You can love the K dot all you want but if you had to make a 300 yard precision shot, its going to be more luck than anything else, its out of its element. Keep in mind that the premise I am working under is that the OP is on the precision side of the fence. "Meopta illumination is clearly visible in the brightest sunlight." I never said it wasnt. What I said, if you look at the complete context, was there are few optics that are daylight usable AND have holdovers. The Meopta and Trijicon do not. "Being not true 1x S&B is not as good for close range as meopta and offers no obvious advantage at x4. All that for about 3X the cost." This is a silly statement. Offers no advantage for whome? Someone that wants to hit a 10" circle at 50 or 100yds, yeah Id agree to that, but it holds great advantage for someone that wants to hit a precision target at greater distance. "Elcan is a nice scope but once again at more than double the cost of the meopta is it really twice the scope?" Yes it is, for me. But I want an optic I can take the offset 5 yd shot with, flick the lever, and ring the steel at 200 yds with ease. Flick back to 1x and take out all the 50 yd targets engaged on the move. "Kyle Lamb recommended the TR series for serious rifles" It is a good optic, it lacks precision as ive said. If they ever put the TA01 or TA33 H-G ret in that optic it would be truly fantastic. Im baffled why they dont. " exposed elevation adjustments seem like a rather bad idea," Most optics in this catagory either have locking turrets or pretty stiff turrets. Aimpoints dont because they arent meant for that type of shooting. Acogs dont because they have BDC reticles. So if you have a need for greater precision, the Meopta and the TR are not the best choices in this catagory. When an individual asks me for recomendations that are in the Med to long range catagory, they usually arent talking about "minute of man accurate" optics. It comes down to focus and strengths. The focus and strength of the Meopta and TR is speed on minute of man sized targets at closer ranges. Something like the S&B Short Dot is fantastic that it can do both. Want to make an accurate shot, leave the red dot off and use the mil dot reticle. Want to go fast, turn it to 1x and click on the red glowing orb. If you dont have any interest or need to engage fast and close targets, then something like the Nightforce 2.5X10 is a very good choice. There is one thing you guys need to understand. I have no immotional investment in any of these optics. I simply try and pick the best one for the task at hand. Match the optic to the role. Dont fit the optic you "love" to a role just because you like that optic, performance will suffer.

Ray, if your going to pass because a sample of 1(and said sample, the pistol is likely not the issue imho), you better sell everything you have including your underwear!

There are reasons you see more 40's go. Volume may be one but the other was the poor execution of this caliber in the Glock22. Since the pistol in question is an STI and a double stack at that, it is highly likley that its a ramped barrel with a fully supported chamber. Which would also give some indication that the problem was likely ammo.

They cannot make you voluntarily surrender them if that is your question. And unless they had PC or could make a public or spousal safety case, I think they would need a warrent to sieze them. BUT PLEASE SEEK REAL LEGAL ADVICE if you have a situation on your hands that warrents it.

Im just plain broke!!!