Shane45

I agree with 99% of Griz's statements. The only sticking point is learning long range precision shooting outside the Army. It can and is done every day. In fact you can get BETTER training than the Army has to offer in civillian channels. However, this is an endeavor measured in years and a SIGNIFICANT financial commitment. Most everyone I know that is seriously commited to long range precision shooting easily has well over 10k wrapped up in it. Thats not to say it cant be done on a budget, but usually it is not. If I had to make a guess on a reasonable budget, it would start @ 7k. It would look something like this: Used FN SPR A3G 2000 Used Nighforce F1 2000 Used Kowa Spotting Scope 800 Accessories 500 1 Solid train up 1500 Ammo 1000 ---------- 7800

Bry, just hold out for that Kobra Carry and be done with it!

In my opinion it would be a very good start. The fundamentals are the same.

Joe, your so off base in that line of thinking I dont even know where to start. Nothing your going to do with that bolt rifle at the range as an amature is going to prepare you for anything you would do in the Army except for basic marksmanship which you can achieve with a .22. So the relevance of the question still stands, what do you want to do? The calibers represented cover a wide assortment of different types of shooting from varmint hunting to medium game. If your interest is in cutting your teeth in precision rifle, the 308 is the staple of that endeavor.

Speachless!

I Agree with CH. I have had face to face conversation with those involved with developing these systems. We agreed that there is an inherrent issue with the fact these systems are designed to work with existing barrels and bolt carrierse etc etc. If someone wanted to corner a market, they would develop a ground up solution that fit a standard lower. THAT would be an innovation.

I have no faith in LWRC. I dont really care for piston AR's as stated earlier. So its 2 strikes. For relatively even money, I would (and did) buy rifles that are designed from the ground up as piston rifles. My DI gun is a Colt and she runs great! Buy what you like but understand that the internet is full of hype and missinformation. Despite my dislike for LWRC I think there is sound evidence that a piston AR is a cobled solution with layer upon layer of "fixes". No thanks. I havent seen any piston AR imune from this including LMT! Evaluate why you want a piston AR would be my advice. Then go buy a SCAR

IIRC this was indeed staged. Im stretching the memory here but I think it was a series made to illustrate "bubba" mistakes.

I am not a fan. I dont care for retrofit platforms and to add to that I do not like LWRC one bit. If I had to have a piston AR, I would look at LMT.

To keep balance in teh universe do I have to go buy an A K now?

There alwasy seems to be another rung on the ladder. When you get really high up there, the mount is part of the scope!!! http://hudisco.com/Telescopic%20Sight%20ZF%203-12x56mm%20SSG-P.html Hell its only money right? Whats 5k on a scope But hey there next model up which goes back to a conventional mount is only 12k. But the mount is included

Glenn, please dont take my comments as an impeachment of your process or methodology. Its not. I think if I was making any point in this regard, its that when you get to a certain level of component, it becomes more often than not, not needed. I think we likely agree than corrective lapping may very well be needed more often than not at a lower level of component where there may be more manufacturing error or tolerence stack.

The problem usually isnt the two piece mount its self, its usually the reciever they are bolted to. Ive seen a number of rifles where you could lay a ruler next to the holes in the reciever and see the missallignment. But the solution is not in the ring/rail in that instance although it can be(rings that have windage offset-not a fan). But punching the holes out to a larger dia. and aligning them at the same time is my preferance. But this is why my personal preferance is for a one piece base(or recievers with integral rails ). I think there is a TON of misconceptions about lapping. Like I said before, the ONLY time you will ever see me lap is for a corrective measure. For example. A scope tube thats a bit oversize and doesnt seat all the way in the ring. If something is twisting a one piece base, then something else more rudimentary is wrong and needs to be corrected first. The levels of precision that matter are the interface between mount/rings and pic rail, concentricity of the holes in the pair, and in my opinion, the design of the picatinny clamping method. If I gave you a rail gauge to run around with and try on all your stuff you would probably have a heart attack on how much is out of spec! This is why a matched set of ring and rail is strongly desired. For example My sets of Ops2Inc and Seekins precision rings would NOT fit on a nighforce base on my GAP 338LM. The base its self was out of spec. The cross slots were under minimum callout for pic. spec. I had to machine the slots to spec for the rings to seat. Go to the other end of the spectrum and you now have the space that can allow shift. Its simply the tighter the tolerance, the higher the repeatability and the better the guard against shift if the system is dropped knocked etc etc.

Not to sound like an optic snob but.... when your mounting a +3k scope, its gotta be in rings/mounts up to the task. So here is my opnion on ones I have used. Accracy International. This mount depite its pedestrian appearance was excellent. It just flat worked. As a bonus it left no ring marks. Larue. I did not care for this mount. I didnt like the clamping mechanism. I didnt like the rail interface. I didnt keep it long. Leupold Mk V. Meh.... Did the job but werent as precise as I like. Desert Tactical Arms. Pass. I actually had an issue with mine and had to do corrective laping. Suprising for the price of the mount. Not thrilled with it. Will replace in the near future. Ops2Inc In my opinion, simply the best! I exlusively use these mounts/rings/Rails if they are available for my application. They are always precision bored as a matched set. I can truly say that there is no biase here given my relationship with the company. Seekins Precision A very good set of rings among his other items. If Ops2Inc where not available, this would be my next choice. Badger Ordnance Although some swear by them, I found them to be behind the curve in regards to their precision. A word on ring marks. In my opinion ring marks are a civy concern. Most military/le use manufacturers dont really care bout ring marks but since the civy world gets their undies in a bunch about it some try and pay some attention to this. But some consider ring marks as postive grip on the scope. Just for clarification im not talking about ring marks that are the result of improper mounting and movement. Im more speaking of a little bit of "bite" that can show on the anodising. If you were to go deep into the engineering of rings and get into the depths of tube deformation etc etc, it becomes clear why this happens. Personally I would choose operationally sound over asthetic integrity. For somehting that seems so simple on the surface, I can tell you the subject is deeply comlex and that there are only a few companies out there doing it right! Rings that are precision bored as a set when sitting on a one piece base are highly concentric and accurate. Add a quality scope with little tube varience... well I have never had to lap this scenario. In this close up, you can see the attention to detail paid to clearance and tight tolerance of ops2inc rings and rails. The tighter the fit, the less oportunity for shift. If the pic below looks familier to you, you were probably involved in the FBI Sniper Rifle contract as this was the ring rail combo that won the contract in conjunction with the FN SPR A3G.

Yes, to many to list.

Yes there is a trick. Provided your scope is a quality unit and the bottom of the turret housing is flat, quick and dirty, eyeball level and tighten enough so that the scope can be turned but not turn freely on its own. Stack playing cards in between the flat of the scope and the flat of the mount. A little more technical, use a feeler gauge on the same flats.

GUYS!!!! Thank you so much for the kind sentiment! You are all great!!!!!

+1 for no loctite! I dont lap either unless I see an issue that needs corrective lapping.

Sometimes impulse buys are the most satisfying

It depends on the scope. Some new scopes are designed to be mounted this way. If its a cheapie scope, it may pull its self apart as cheap scopes are often multi piece tubes glued together. ps. The scope moves regardless!

I dumped the bag and went to tool box. Since I shoot so many different systems and disciplines, it was too crazy with stuff everywhere in the bag. Box is working MUCH better for me. Box for all the tools etc etc, ammo box for ammo, bag for all soft equipment(holsters, chest rigs etc etc).

...and its probably why im a tyrrant with my kid LOL

Jesus am I the only one that had BB gun fights as a kid????? 2 pumps max! But if you forgot and pumped 2 more times... you were squeesing yer buddies skin to work the bb back out the hole 10 pumps would go over an inch deep in wood out of my crossman. And BB's were for penetration pellets were for accuracy.

I would in fact choose my Colt over an ACR!