Shane45

Mr G I dont think I agree with you. There was a big flap during Katrina about how the NG refused disarming duties.

A quick glance at the ballistic chart on Winchesters page shows the energy of 5.56 at 500 yards to be around 343Ft/Lbs. Still lethal but about the same energy as a 9mm IIRC. The 308 is still cooking at over 1200Ft/Lbs! That is a very big difference in energy. Even if the 5.56 was double, its still about half a 308. Now I know this is a bit of a departure from the OP's direction but I am of the opinion that the right 308 patterned AR CAN be run very close to the speeds of a 5.56 AR. My particuler quest is for the 0 to 800 yd AR. Like I said, if you need energy at distance, that comes in the form of a 308 (or derivitive). However, with that being said, at closer distance there are some advantages for 308 here as well. That comes in the form of barrier penetration and less deflection in things like brushy conditions for example. Of course these things may be of no interest to most. As far as speed, a drill I did recently on the clock, the difference in total time between the 5.56 platform and the 308 platform was only .22 of a second. It was a fast shooting drill at close range.

Ill just put it this way on the topic of hunting deer. Whenever I went deer hunting I could never even spot one! When I was mountain biking I damn near ran into several. So I guess the solution is to hunt them on mountain bike!

I think their ranges are highly suspect....

"Holing up in the wilds... last family on earth? .22 rifle with scope for hunting" You will starve to death just eating rabbit!!!!!

If day to day life is not altered that much then I dont consider it a SHTF disaster. When I think of SHTF I think of events like Katrina and in fact I know a few that toted full battle rattle and set up perimiters amongst their blocks/group of homes. They went unscathed compared to their neighbors close by.

The question becomes do you need/want power at disctance. 5.56 can shoot accuratly out to 1k. But most 5.56 loads are really down on power at around 500 yds. If you want power at distance then you are really talking about a 308 AR or one of its varients. There are solutions that will work with your 5.56 lower such as 6.5 Grendal. But I dont like doing it this way because my stock setup for a run and gun rig and a precision rig are significantly different as well as the trigger setup. If your on a budget you can do it this way but I prefer to have seperate rifles. If I could only spring for two, it would be one 5.56 and one 308. If I had a precision 308, I would have no interest in a 5.56 precision rig. In fact now that I think about it, all of my precision based AR's have been 308s. If you want to zap ground hogs, get a 204 ruger upper down the road. Id talk to Tactical Monkey about reliving him of his DPMS. I have shot that rifle and its a good rig.

I want an honest to god Cannon and a Gatling gun!!!

I supose it could happen that way although I havent heard of it occuring. I do believe in Todd's case he was clearing a jam.

Something for further consideration. There is a small risk associated with the overhand/powerstroke method particulerly for .40 shooters. there is the remote possibility of setting off a round while your hand is over the chamber. This happened to Todd Jarrett when he sent a .40 through his hand.

Joel, they used to be all the rage but I suspect that they have fallen out of favor especially for the types of shooters you will find in your classes. Frankly I havent seen one in a long time. But again I have been out of IPSC for a long time too.

I believe he was being tongue in cheek/sarcastic

Sounds to me like Police officers policing their own! Good job in my opinion!!!

It has been over 10 years since I ran a shock buff as I only ran one in my IPSC pistol. But I do know those that use them in all their 1911's. I never had one chew uo on me to the point of shredding in the pistol but I changed it out regulerly. I was running VERY hot 45 loads back then as I was one of the Dinosuars running a .45 still and the power factor was higher then so I was running around 1200fps . Anyway, the shockbuff would allow everything to function normally except slingshotting. I dont recall if I ever tried to muscle a slingshot to tell the truth. Did a quick search and found this link with more info. http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=196845

" it will always work consistently with any pistol." Thiis is not correct, especially for those that like to run shock buffs in their comander 1911's.

One big con of going outside the norm calibers on the ar platform is availability. With 5.56 and 308, generally Surplus can be found to shoot on the cheap. Everything else, not so much. I have delved into the boutique calibers before and always ended up back with the standards.

That video mirrors pretty much the other similer tests I have seen. At this stage with so many having performed these tests and posted the results, I cant understand why the statement of 5.56 rifles will cause an overpenetration danger keeps getting repeated as fact. Its simply not true........ The test I usually quote and have posted on this forum a couple times already: by Gunsite Training Center Staff A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability. Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics. Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls. The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building: A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position. B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1. C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.) D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.) All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files. The following results were obtained: 1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning. 2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets. 3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles. 4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through. The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight! Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test. .22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2 9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2 9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2 .40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2 .40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2 .45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2 .45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2 .223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2 .223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2 .223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

Maks Maks Maks. The REAL gaming pros dont count their shots. They count their mikes! On the topic of counting shots, its my opinion that this is a gungame only thing. If you are firing that many rounds you are likely in the very, very rare (for a civy) protracted gunfight. In the real world I dont think you will get to figure out in advance the number of shots you will fire or where you plan to reload. I cant fathom trying to keep a round count, communicate with team members, family members or use the radio or phone and scan for BG's all while keeping a round count in my head. Especially if Im hurt, a family member or team member is hurt or I just shot someone. I just think its unrealistic. I think that this is why most drills for defensive and offensive shooting center around slide lock reloads. If you get an opportunity for a reload with retention, great. I think those are the two more likely scenarios. Keeping a round count in a real gunfight to me is like trying to thread a needle while in a gunfight. The brain and body is simply not going to comply.

I made this vid a while back for a discussion regarding which would be faster, a reload or dropping a pistol and picking up another. I contended the reload would be faster. At any rate I favor the slide release because I feel its quicker than overhand or slingshot and I feel it keeps me closer to firing position.

I favor the slide release. If I were going to manipulate the slide it would be with the overhand method as I do not like the awkward position slingshotting puts my wrists in compared to overhand. In the overhand method its easier to keep the pistol in my "workspace".

Like I tell my kids, theres right, and theres the way it is......

Tosser, unfortunatly thats the only place empirical data exists for a group that I have come across. But I contend that the group doesnt matter. It wouldnt matter if it was a group of gun hating liberals. If the scores went up from one pistol to another, that data suggests one is inherently better than the other in terms of shootability.

Hal, it was my understanding that in fact you did not ned to serialise the reciever. (in most free America states)

Sensei, if you feel froggy go ahead and jump. But in this state I would advise that you have your council already selected and about 90k in the bank for your defence. Because the day you get stopped and the officer looks at your rifle with no serial number, he aint gonna want to hear stories about boat rides and you will be needing said council and cash....

Or like the Jahova witnesses that show up at my door every now and then LOL