NFRs2000NYC

Fake IDs are technically a "crime" (different states have different severity of these infractions) so that technically doesn't have anything to do with the club, just a convenient place to do it. They technically need the businesses' permission to do this, but it is in the club's best interest to allow it. Being on the good side of the law with police is a good thing for a club.

Simple. Outside major PD departments (ie NYPD, Philly PD, Chicago PD, LAPD, etc,) most smaller township cops are good. Cops generally are not dickheads in small departments. A "normal" cop would never ask a regular citizen not doing anything to see their ID. They know they have no RAS, they know the person doesn't have to, and there is simply, no reason. Now, a small percentage of cops either get their jollies off of harassing citizens or just flat don't know the law. In these cases, it is your DUTY to protect your own rights, and not just "comply" with a request just because it was put forth by a person in a position of power. Should you be an a-hole right off the bat? Of course not. However, if an officer ever stops you, it is HIS job to tell you why he is stopping you. Just asking for ID is not enough. You can and SHOULD ask, what is this about officer? There are polite ways of handling situations, but you should never let someone in authority get away with law breaking. Remember, they won't extend that courtesy to you. Furthermore, like I said, you don't need to show them ID. You can simply say "my name is David" and that is it. If they need MORE information, they MUST has RAS and need to OFFICIALLY detain you.

Safe to say that officer will not only lose his job, he will do jail time as well. Again, circumstances don't matter. We can safety assume the guy getting run over was a protestor annoying the police, and maybe even doing something illegal. However, trapping his leg under a scooter is NOT proper protocol for detainment, so it definitely won't end well for that officer.

After reading this post, I am wondering what our debate was? It seems you agree with everything I said.

I have NEVER seen a police officer doing id checks at a club. A club is a private establishment, and they can set any rules they want. If they want to require pink sneakers, they have the right. Like KDpipes said, you must be able to prove that you are 21 to drink, so they MAY ask for your ID (many places that serve liquor don't, like Friday's for instance) but they have the right to card for whatever age they want. Now, police do raid clubs/bars in order to establish legal compliance, and check for underage drinking, but I have never EVER heard of a police officer checking IDs at the door of a club. I am actually pretty sure they are not even allow to do that, since they are not employees of the establishment.

Terry v Ohio clearly states Like I said, it can NEVER be "just because." Now, sure, police are often guilty of coming up with RAS, but due to cell phones, cameras, etc, they have recently gotten more careful.

BTW, I never said they should have KILLED him. I simply stated the threat needed to be stopped.

Yes sir.

I am sorry you feel that way, but sometimes LEGAL judgements are not to everyone's taste. The man who was stabbed will now hose the NYPD for potentially, millions of dollars due to police inaction. Yes, police have no duty to protect, but in a civil suit, that does not apply. Most of you are also not really getting what I am saying. Should they have shot him? Maybe, maybe not. However, they should have done SOMETHING to stop the stabbing, simple as that. You all also fail to realize that police often put the "officer safety" card first and foremost. In this case, you have an attacker with a knife. There is no telling if the attacker wont turn on police and start slashing them. Thus, engaging the perp in close quarters would be a bad idea, since the officer's first job is to come home to his family that night for dinner. Thus, you are left with a very easy choice with two jobs....the first is to stop the attack, the second is to not put yourself in harms way....other than shooting, I would like to hear what the officer's options are when dealing with a man wielding a knife.

I think you guys need to read up on the rules of engagement. If there is a person with a knife ABOUT to stab someone, then yes, "stop, police" is the appropriate first statement. However, if someone is ACTIVELY stabbing someone, then there is no more time for verbal warnings.

No that is me. My wife, my mother and my brother-in-law are attorneys. I help my brother in law run a legal help website, which answers any legal questions anyone might have.

The word IDENTIFY means you must inform the officer of your identity. The US Supreme Court case (Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada) ruled (among other things) that simply stating your name is enough identification, and you have no duty to carry documentation. HOWEVER, if the officer has RAS, he may detain you, and/or take you down to the state to fully identify who you are. For instance, if someone robbed a bank nearby, and you happen to match the description of the perp, the officer has RAS, and can detain you, establish your identity, and if you have no actual ID on you, you may be taken down to the station to be identified. However, again, if you are just walking in the park, and the officer blatantly comes up to you and says "may I see your ID" without ANY other warning, greetings, etc etc etc, feel free to keep walking. There is no law that requires you to talk to police. I am personally courteous to police officers, but NOT when they violate my rights. If the officer approaches me in a polite, professional manner, I will respond accordingly. NJ does NOT have a stop and identify statute, so cops can't even ATTEMPT to ask for your ID until AFTER you have been LEGALLY detained.

Then debate properly, and prove me wrong. I posted a direct statute which ONLY allows a police officer to stop someone IF they have RAS, which in itself, is a very specific thing. Your move sheriff

I am NOT a lawyer, but know POLICE law very well, or better yet, laws that POLICE must follow.

Oh, and BTW, since this is a gun and pro CCW forum...you guys do know Bloomberg's BS right? "We don't need guns in NY because we have the world's best police force, and they are enough to protect the people." Yea, I saw a lot of protection there.

It was in the papers. The man on top is stabbing the guy on the bottom in the neck with a pocket knife. I believe the guy on the bottom was a homeless man. That is ALL the police need to know to shoot. They need to see the man on top with a knife, and the man on the bottom bleeding. Circumstances have absolutely no weight at that point. If the guy on the bottom raped an entire school 10 seconds ago, and the guy on top is the pope, POLICE are NOT supposed to stand there and "judge." They see a VIOLENT crime being committed right in front of them, and that is ALL they need to know.

You people are SERIOUSLY out of your minds. If there was EVER a time police should shoot someone, this is it. SOMEONE IS ON TOP OF ANOTHER PERSON, ACTIVELY STABBING THEM!!!! They weren't fist fighting, they weren't wrestling, one person was KILLING another person. I can't believe I am reading this sort of non-sense on a gun forum. I think you guys SERIOUSLY need to educate yourselves on gun laws, police laws, etc. Police shoot people for MUCH MUCH less than this.

Read my previous response. I stated that the police can ruin your day, but if a cop tried to do it to me, he would have the next 3 months ruined, wrongful arrest, wrongful detainment, official oppression, and a slew of other complaints. Don't forger who you serve and "protect." I see you don't know the law in your own state. I posted the statute, read up, and do not post wrong information. The people on this forum are better informed than most of the public.

This post makes zero sense. You do understand the point of police right? The fact that the guy might have raped a 5 year old girl 30 minutes earlier doesn't matter. Police are NOT judges/jury/executioners. Police have no way of knowing that he raped a girl until they do heavy investigating. The video is blatantly clear. If some guy was on top of you stabbing you in the neck, you would have been dead due to police inaction. Circumstances don't matter. Police action matters.

As if you guys need another reason why CCW is paramount, and that police are worthless... Take a look at this video... http://tinyurl.com/3d7mluf The man on top is STABBING the guy on the bottom in the neck....look how the cops handle it. They draw down, but while the guy is stabbing away, they do nothing. No shots fired (spare me the "he can hit the innocent guy crap") no boot to the face, no baton to the back. Just want to refresh everyone's memory, police HAVE NO DUTY TO PROTECT YOU!

You can do this in all 50 states, legally. However, unless you are filming the officer, he can ruin your day. If you are randomly walking your dog, and a police officer asks you for your ID, feel free to walk right by, or maybe say hello if you are feeling extra friendly, but under no circumstances, in any 50 states, do you HAVE to ID yourself.

This is not correct. There are no states in the US that have a stop and RANDOMLY identify law PERIOD. The police CAN ask for ID, but you can refuse. Now, stop and identify means that IF THE OFFICER suspects you are involved in a criminal act AND has RAS, THEN he can stop and identify. In Nevada, this falls under NRS 171.123 ( http://leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-171.html#NRS171Sec123 ) Now, this does NOT mean that police don't do just that, stop anyone they want because they "look" suspicious, but I want to make sure everyone understands...not one of the 50 states has a blatant "stop" and "idenfify" law that gives officers permission to stop anyone. P.S. Even under any of the states' given stop and identify statutes, you have to IDENTIFY yourself, meaning, telling the officer your name is enough. You do NOT have to show ID.

The Marine is a moron. He fails to distinguish the duties of armed forces and police. Just because he is a marine and loud, does not make him any less of an asshat than the protesters.

I am sure PK90 is a highly regarded member on the board, and I take NOTHING away from him. I am simply debating facts/laws vs opinions. For instance, my FFL, a very smart, well versed in firearm legal knowledge was under the impression that one MUST submit a SS# for an NICS check, to which I corrected him, and after I passed mine, he said "you learn something new everyday."

Exactly my point. You cannot have a law apply to CERTAIN conditions. For instance, if I buy from the same FFL, he probably would have a much harder time proving that he didn't know. However, My Sig Mosquito I bought from Heritage Firearms guild. 31 days later, I bought my p220 Elite from a dealer in Texas, and shipped it in my local FFL. He had no idea that I bought a mosquito. He doesn't know if this is my first gun, or my 15th. Now, we are arguing if BY LAW, he was supposed to ask me, and I can find NOTHING on the books that requires an FFL to ask. IF they do it on their own volition, good on them, but it is NOT required. The law ONLY states that IF THEY KNOW (ie you use that FFL all the time) you bought a gun less than 30 days ago, they are NOT allowed to sell to you.