High Exposure
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Posts posted by High Exposure
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I'm not a fan of manual safeties but this is a good argument for them on concealed pistols.
If you are not a fan of manual safeties, why would you want one on a CCW?
What about revolvers?
Careful how you state things as a representative of the shooting sports and an advocate for firearms in a world full of antis and those that don't know any better. Your words may come back to bite you.
....thus my question, I have no experience with holsters besides what I've read but even with the limited adjustments afforded a very few IWB models, it would seen quite a feat to accomplish an accidental fatal chest shot, even more so with the victim behind you...
What if she was kneeling? What if it wasnt a hug, but instead she fell and pulled on the cops belt to help pull herself up? Between different weapon/holster combos and body interactions, I can think of a million different scenarios where this could happen.
Also, please rememebr this report is a news article, not an official investigation report. It was written to show guns and cops in a bad light because that's what the public likes right now. If it bleeds it leads, truth doesn't come into play. When was the last time a reporter got anything correct in a story about firearms?
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In my experience, a carbine being used in the conditions we find here in the Northeast, typically runs better when wet.
You should follow the manufactuers guidelines for lubrication for your particular weapon.
Personally, if it is shiny, indicating metal on metal contact of moving parts, I lube it liberally.
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Not enough info about this yet to really KNOW what happened!
This x10000000000
Original articles below -
The Detroit Free Press’s article (the second article) states an inside the waistband holster was involved.
Sounds like the officer was in his own home, dancing with his wife at a party he was throwing. By the article, the victim and the cop did not know each other. She arrived to the party as a "friend of a friend" type deal. My guess is she was "dirty dancing" with him, possibly on her knees and grabbed his belt. I don't see in either article where it states make of pistol only caliber .40 Smith & Wesson.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireS...-kills-woman-1673747
Police: Hug Triggers Officer's Gun, Kills Woman
DETROIT July 9, 2012 (AP)
A woman celebrating the weekend before her 25th birthday was fatally shot Sunday when she hugged an off-duty police officer while dancing at a party, causing the officer's service weapon to fire, according to police and her mother.
Adaisha Miller would have turned 25 on Monday, according to her mother, Yolanda McNair.
The shooting happened at an outdoor social gathering about 12:30 a.m., said police Sgt. Eren Stephens. It happened on the city's west side.
According to Stephens, the woman "embraced the officer from behind, causing the holstered weapon to accidently discharge." The bullet punctured Miller's lung and hit her heart, and she died at a hospital.
Stephens said the Detroit officer will remain on administrative duties while authorities investigate the shooting and report their findings to the Wayne County prosecutor. The officer's name was not released.
"For this to happen to her, whether they want to call it freak accident or mistake in judgment, it should have never happened to my child, and there's nothing I can do to get her back," McNair told WDIV-TV.
McNair said her daughter was out to mark her upcoming birthday.
"All she wanted to do was enjoy the weekend for her birthday," the mother said. "She had every right to enjoy turning 25 and look beyond that."
__________________________________________________________________________
July 9, 2012
http://www.clickondetroit.com/.../hav3lz/-/index.html
Woman hugs off-duty Detroit police officer — and dies after his gun goes off
Detroit
Detroit Free Press
Yolanda McNair wants to know why she is planning a funeral for her daughter Adaisha Miller rather than a birthday celebration today.
“The story keeps changing,” McNair said. “There’s no logical reason.”
Miller, who would have turned 25 today, was fatally shot early Sunday morning while attending a party on Archdale in Detroit. Police reports say she was killed when an off-duty Detroit police officer’s pistol fired as she embraced him.
“Instead of giving her a party this week, I’m planning her obituary and funeral,” said McNair as she sat on her west-side Detroit front porch Sunday evening with solemn relatives, neighbors and friends.
The police news release called the 12:30 a.m. shooting “a tragic incident,” but McNair said she cannot understand how it occurred.
Police said that Miller hugged the officer -- whose name has not been released -- from behind as he was dancing, and the gun discharged.
However, McNair said she also was told her daughter “was being a little flirty” with the officer and the gun fired as they were in a face-to-face hug.
If you’re at a party, she asked, “why do you need a weapon with a round in the chamber?”
Police spokeswoman Sgt. Eren Stephens said officers have the option of carrying a gun off-duty but there is no requirement for them to be armed.
A departmental investigation is being conducted by internal affairs, and the officer will be assigned to administrative duties during the probe, Stephens said.
The Wayne County Prosecutor’s Office will conduct a separate, independent review of the shooting, said office spokeswoman Maria Miller. Such reviews are standard for shootings involving police officers.
McNair endorsed a second investigation: “Yes, take it to the full extent.”
Miller’s younger brother Shane Miller, 23, said he also wants answers from the officer: “My sister is dead and you’re alive walking around -- like you didn’t even know what happened?”
John Goldpaugh, a lawyer for the Detroit Police Officers Association, said, “This was just a freak accident.
“They were having a party and the next thing, a woman is dead. He’s devastated by what happened.”
Goldpaugh, who spent several hours with the officer after the shooting, said the veteran beat patrolman was hosting a party at his home and was dancing with his wife when Miller came up behind him and tugged at his waist.
“And the gun went off,” Goldpaugh said. “It’s a fluke accidental shooting.”
The weapon, a department-issued, 40-caliber Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistol, was in a holster worn inside the officer’s waistband and was covered by his shirt, Goldpaugh said.Goldpaugh said the physical evidence from the incident corroborated the officer’s account of the shooting. The officer did not know the woman, who attended the party with other guests, Goldpaugh said.
Miller was a certified massage therapist, her mother said, and a young woman with “a gentle heart who was giving to anybody.”
McNair said she waved good-bye to her daughter Saturday evening as she left for the party.
“Then I saw her at the morgue,” McNair said.
Miller must have been thinking of her grandmother who died in 2010, McNair said.
“And there a smile on her face."
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My Remington 870 has an Insight Tech MRDS on a Mesa Tactical Rail. Works great as a night sight!
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Try Slip EWL and the Slip family of degreaser/cleaner and carbon cutters. Thank me later
As far as lube, you can use anything for the short term. As long as you keep it wet, the AR Platform can be extremely forgiving. I have heard from reliable sources, or seen first hand, the following used successfully as a short term lubricant on rifles, either as an experiment or as a field expedient remedy:
WD-40
Butter/Margarine
Olive Oil
Pam
Saliva
Vagisil
Urine
Astroglide
KY Jelly
Motor oil
Eye wash/artificial tears
Just because it works, doesn't mean it is the right choice.
In my experience, CLPs (like Breakfree) and Dry Film Lubricants (like Militec) don't do everything I wish they could. In fact, in my experience, they flat out don't work at all. Have you ever actually read the directions to correctly apply Militec? Outrageous. Plus they suck at long term rust prevention, and quickly wear off both in use and in storage.
There is a reason that the military (at least the US Army and USMC) is getting away from them.
Read this: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09735r.pdf
I don't have any long term experience with Motor Oil as a lubricant, and in the short term it worked well, just burned off quicker than the Slip, and had mediocre protective properties.
The Slip products are Non-Toxic, don't stink (although I admit, I do like the smell of Hoppes #9), work extremely well, are relatively cheap and the lube stays wet long after you apply it.
I shot a 3 day VTAC course in May this year. I fired almost 2000 rounds over the 3 days. I applied Slip on the morning of TD 1 and that was it. No cleaning, no more lube for the remainder of the course. I had a popped primer in the morning of TD 1 and that was my only malfunction.
Guys using other stuff, either by choice or SOP, did not fare nearly as well, with stoppages a-plenty during the high round count strings called for on some drills.
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I am glad it was helpful.
But what I was getting at was more precise than that.
If you are deciding to use DPF on someone, you may need to determine more than just familiar or unknown, Police or bad guy. It may come down to what is in their hands or the look in their eye. It may be the fact that their finger is on or off the trigger or the way they are holding the knife that flips the switch in your mind and screams "SHOOT!!! or you will die!"
Light helps you see those little things and speed up your ability to make those life or death split second decisions.
Don't forget, the bad guy has a vote in all of this as well. Not only are you in a fight, but it is a race.
Now, keep in mind that my post doesn't even touch on actual low light tactics, techniques or procedures (TTPs) for the actual engagement sequence or shooting techniques with artificial light sources - either handheld, dedicated weapon lights, or tertiary/supplemental light sources such as back lighting or silhouetting, multiple targets, or more than 1 "defender". That topic is a whole other ball of wax with a multitude of accepted "best practices" that is difficult at best to explain without demonstrations/hands on. I am strictly talking about the search-acquire-ID process requiring the use of a while light, by someone with little to no training in a home defense type scenario.
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Glock 35 with 180gr Gold Dot Hollow points
M4 with 62gr Federal TRU soft points
Rem 870 with Hornady TAP 00 buck
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I am a relative gun newbie compared to many, and I'm sorry, but this statement made me do your "Wait, what?"
If I open my bedroom door with a flashlight turned on, someone down the stairs and around the complete other side of the house breaking into a window now knows that I came out of my bedroom just by sight alone.
I can see sufficiently with my two night lights, and ghost rings. Even without them, the streetlight outside the front of my house is very useful. I find I only need a very small amount of light to see effectively in the dark, especially if I've just woken up.
Now I'm not saying a gun attached light does not have it's place - everyone's house is different and you have to prepare yourself for your own environment.
The thing that makes me wonder the most is the super bright flashlights I see attached to weapons sometimes. Wouldn't anything over 5-10 lumens ruin your peripheral vision if your eyes have adjusted to the dark? I find 1-4 lumens to be more than sufficient.
Slight thread hijack, but important. Apologies to the OP.
In any confrontation that involves the use of Deadly Physical Force (DPF) with a firearm there is a sort of process, almost like a flow-chart full of if-then statements. Now, these statements are not absolutes, and require discretion based of tiny amounts of data gathered by all of your senses, but mostly by sight. Humans do not see that well in twilight/low light/dark conditions, so we need help. Help in the form of artificial light.
Now this is overly simplified, and geared towards addressing a home intruder specifically, but the engagement process goes something like this for a threat that requires gunshots:
Recognition of a problem > search > acquire > ID threat > engage > evaluate > scan > post engagement sequence > secure > communicate
Now with a little more explaination for each step in a home intruder type scenario:
You are sound asleep and something goes bump in the night - first you realize there is a problem then you begin your search/evacuation/lockdown procedures which should be pre-planned.
During your search, evacuation, or lockdown process you may come into contact with a target, either due to you seeing them as you move through your home or them seeing you as they approach your baricaded position. This contact process should go something like this:
Acquire a target THEN identify the target - you have 3 choices for ID here: friendly - unknown - threat
- If friendly then move on and continue the search/acquire/ID cycle while executing your evac/shelter/search plan
- If unknown then attempt to identify further: verbal challenge - observation - visual ID
- If threat then address appropriately based on threat.
Now, does addressing the threat appropriately mean retreat, engage, posture? That's dependent on too many circumstances to list. If, however, engagement is the answer, then see my post above for what you may need a white light for and why I prefer a dedicated weapon mounted light.
Finally, after any engagement, you need to:
- evaluate the amount of force used and reapply as necessary, if your initial use of force was adequate then proceed to:
- complete a scan
- perform and any post engagement processes you subscribe to
- if necessary secure the threat
There are a lot of variables during each of the above steps, but there is one constant -
You need to SEE to acquire and ID the target
You need to SEE to engage the threat
You need to SEE to determine if your engagement worked
You need to SEE to complete your scan
You need to SEE to complete your post engagement sequence, whatever way you were trained
You need to SEE to secure the threat
Every step of this process indicates the need for light, and a lot of it!
Great, you can see down your hallway with your night lights and street light. Can you discern the difference between a cellphone, car keys, knife, flashlight, and gun with the small amount of light present from your night lights and streetlights, at distances from your bedroom door to wherever the threat may be?
Hopefully the bad guy is standing away from all shadows, in the brightest throw of the streetlight through your windows, is holding still, showing you his hands so you can check, and wearing glow in the dark clothing so you can recognize the strange shape is a person, and not the dog, a pile of laundry, a weird shadow, etc... Remember, deadly force is not authorized for property crimes. You better make sure that is a weapon in his hand and not the remote to your TV, or his own flashlight.
How about this, it is a hot summer night. The power is out due to everyone using their A/C units (not too far fetched in the NE). It's hot so all of your windows are open and you think you hear something in the hallway that waks you up. Your windows are open, so it could just be the wind, but it could also be a gen-u-wine bad guy in your home. No street light, no night lights, just you, your HD weapon of choice and your whole house to check and family to keep safe. Now what?
Yes, I understand white light points two ways. It can give your position away while you ID. Easy solution? Use your light appropriately. Why on Earth would you open your door to look down your hallway with a flashlight already on? Acquire a target without the light, then if necessary, ID the target with the light. No target, no white light and continue your search without giving up your position. If you do have a target, ID to the best of your ability, then address appropriately. Don't just turn it on and blast that white light around. Use it with a purpose.
What I meant by: "As far as a light giving away your position, what do you do in the daylight conditions when people can see you? Use your light properly and it is a moot point." Is this:
You should already be conducting any search for an armed intruder/assailant as if it is high-noon, you are wearing lights on your chest that spell out "shoot me", there is a giant bullseye on your face, and a 5 million dollar bounty on your head. A light makes you a bullet magnet at night as much as your body does in the daytime. If you are seen, and the bad guy is dedicated to doing bad things and armed, you are going to be shot at. Day, night, dark, light - use cover and concealment. In low-light use your light appropriately. It's a dangerous game. Play it smart and stack the deck in your favor.
As far as brightness of a white light, I have at least 200 lumens on all of my long guns and 170 lumens on my primary social pistols. I have searched for armed individuals in the dark or low light. I can tell you this, you can't have enough light. I don't want to guess that what the dude is holding is a cellphone or a knife or a gun. I want to know, and I want to know right now. Because while I am deciding what to do - shoot or not - so is he. I better decide before he does, and being the good guy, I better be right because I care about what I hit, he may not.
You said you can "see" effectively in the dark and that you are finding 1-4 lumens to be sufficient. My guess is that is because you never had to move past the acquire phase and into the identification or engagement phases in a confrontation either, for real or in training, that has consequences.
In my experience, at 50 yards and over, less than 200 lumens is useless for anything more than acquisition of a target. ID and engagement (with 100% sureity) is impossible even with ambient moon/streetlight abailable. At 25 yards and closer, a minimum of 100 lumens is called for. I don't want to be in the defendants seat, post shooting, and trying to convince the jury that the moonlight streaming through the window was enough to determine that DPF was necessary.
I am now playing with a 500 lumen light on a long gun in anticipation of an upgrade for all my rifles, and I like it a lot.
Haelous, read my post again. You will see why I prefer a weapon light over a handheld. That being said, you need some kind of light and the brighter the better. Period. I keep a handheld next to my pistol safe as well. Both work and have their place. Both do different jobs and I grab both if I have to bump back in the night, whether that happens to be in my house or someone elses.
Get some low-light training and decide what works for you.
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Soooo..... Now what am I supposed to do with all of this?
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Glock 35 comes standard with NJ Legal 15 round magazines. Then get a 9mm Lone Wolf conversion barrel and some 10 round G17 mags. Best of both worlds - 2 guns in 2 calibers for the low price of about 1.25.
Problem solved, problem staying solved!
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unfortunately for you Glock never made a 15 round magazine for the G-17 factory mags were 17 rounds..which is where the name came from in the first place.
Glock 17 was named such because it was the 17th Patent that Glock Ges.m.b.H filed for. That the capacity is also 17 for that model is just a coincidence.
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Rock on dude!
Just know this, that money spent cutting the barrel, adding the comp, free-floating the barrel etc... could get you more than halfway to the full on AR and it will add nothing to your training/shooitng experience than looks.
Either way - Good luck and enjoy it. I love mine.
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I did the shotty hd gun for a while. Now its my xdm 3.8. 45 loaded with speer gold dots. Thats my nightstand gun. I can clear rooms, use in cqb if needed or during a one handed weapon retention shoot if my other hand is occupied. Versatility and stopping power. No light needed. Gives away position.
Wait. What?
Versality and stopping power? It is a pistol. How versatile can it be? It can do one thing, close range engagements, and it can only do those marginally at best.
No light needed? How do you positvely ID your threat as a threat if you can't see them? How do you pick up your sights on the bounce, in the dark, heart hammering away at 200bpm, groggy with sleep, and put them on target with no light? If you have to fire, how do you know if you hit the bad guy? How do you know if your hits worked and he is down? How do you know if he is staying down? How do you know if he is alone?
"use in cqb if needed or during a one handed weapon retention shoot if my other hand is occupied" it will be occupied alright, with a flashlight when you realize you cant see anything.
As far as a light giving away your position, what do you do in the daylight conditions when people can see you? Use your light properly and it is a moot point.
If you are merely referencing weapon mounted lights under the no light needed statement, consider this. I don't know about you, but I shoot better, faster, and more accurately using both of my hands on the pistol. No matter what hand held technique you prefer, there will be some lessening of ability. I dont know your take on that, but I want to be shooting to the best of my abilities if I ever find myself in a gunfight. You may argue that a light on the pistol creates a Rule 2 Violation. OK, but I am ready to destroy those that I light up until I am sure they are not a threat, so from my way of thinking, no violation. The weaponlight gives me the ability to identify that person as a bad guy, an unknown, or good guy. If necessary to engage, there is no messing with the hand held light or poor one handed shooting shooting techniques. If it comes to shots fired, I can shoot using the same 2 handed grip, stance, tactics, etc... that I train with on a regular basis. No "I hope I can make this work" under fire. If I light it up and identify the target as not being a threat, then I move on to whatever I need to do next. The dedicated weaponlight also lets me use the light and keep a hand free to open a door, pick up my kid, use the phone.
Bottom line, you need a light for SD/HD. A handheld is better than nothing, but if it is an option, then a dedicated weapon light is the A answer all day long.
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Dude, it's a .22. You don't need a comp.
Save the cash, spend it on ammo and mags, and then shoot the $#!+ out of it.
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Irish Pete,
Good on you for wanting to try something new and get into the wonderfully addictive and expensive world of the M16/AR15 family of weapons.
Reading your posts, I do have a question. Why are you building your rifle around what you think you will need for "combatives" instead of being a more effective shooting rifle? That would be like designing a club based on your shooting style, and them using the club for combat standing 25 feet from your enemy.
I carry an AR regularly for work. I am trained in some combatives with the rifle, but my rifle is primarily for shooting fast and accurately at targets from <1 - 250 yards, and is set up that way. The fact that it can also be used as an impact weapon in a "hand to hand" fight is of secondary importance and is more of an "I have an 8 pound club strapped to my body, may as well figure out how to use it to hit this guy instead of using my fists" bonus then a design feature. Optic, sights, rails, lights, magazine, pistol grip, (not to mention any LBE you may be carrying in support of your rifle, such as armor, magazines, pouches, etc...) these are all "snag hazards" and on a fighting gun, they are also all essential equipment. The combatives used when carrying a rifle are designed to work around the rifle and equipment, it shouldn't be the other way around.
Using a rifle as a contact weapon like that is an act of last resort and often times done in desperation. You should not be planning to hit something with your rifle every time you sling in. Plan on shooting your rifle and be prepared to hit something "just in case".
Now, if you want to build a rifle specifically to train in combatives, or to experiment to see what works, go for it. Please report back to the forum your findings on what works and what doesn't. I for one would be very interested.
If you want to build a shooter for HD/SD or gun games, then build a shooter, not a club.
Edited for clarity
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The answer to your question can be different based on what you want out of your firearm, and what kind of equipment you have.
I don't know what make/model you are shooting, but a rack grade mil-spec M4 (according to the TDP) and most Commercial AR-15 are designed to be accurate to 4 moa (Minutes of angle - A minute of angle is approximately 1" at 100 yards). So, if you are getting everything you can out of your rifle, expect around an 8" group at 200 yards, a 4" group at 100 yards, 2" at 50 yards, 1" at 25 yards, etc...
Your ammo selection can help or hurt here too as I have seen some ammo spec'd to be 10 moa accurate.
Now, It can be better than that and some rifles are inherently more accurate than mil-spec (my BCM 16" mid-length is a tack driver). But unless you bought an SPR type AR or an accurized/match rifle, 4" at 100 yards and 2" at 50 yards is a good place to start.
Now as far as targets, that depends on what you want to train for. If you are just interested in shooting high-power and other gun-sports the post above is spot on. If you are interested in self-defense or tactical type shooting with your carbine, that is a different story.
If you are training for self defense, remember, you aren't shooting anymore, now you are fighting. That means there is a compressed time factor with every sight picture and trigger press because your opponent is not just a piece of paper, but is a threat trying to do you harm. That means your targets are the same size and shape as you. The different sized targets used by the high power or bullseye competitors won't help train you for the fight. A human is the same size at 1 yard and at 600 yards, not 12" at 100 yards and 36" at 600. That being said, good luck trying to ID a target as a threat past 200 yards with irons/H-1, let alone defend a 600 yard shot as self defense in court. So, if self defense is your goal, then train for realistic distances.
For self defense/tactical training, your 6" target with a white center at 50 yards will serve you very, very well. (I use 8" paper plates for torso and a 3"x5" index card to simulate the CNS when shooting paper. I also have an 8" rifle rated steel plate. Hearing the steel ring is much better than trying to see 5.56mm holes in paper past 25 yards). Sure, try to keep your rounds in the white while prone, shooting slow fire, zeroing. When time isn't a consideration in your training, or you are working on trigger control, offset, etc... Be as precise as possible and shoot for the best group you can get. If you are training realistically for a fight, if you can always hit the 6" black, from 50 yards and in, in all weather and light conditions, on the move or stationary, in different positions - prone, sitting, squatting, kneeling, standing, and do it relatively quickly, you will be in good shape. 1 shot dead center in the X at 50 yards from the prone in 30 seconds is outstanding, for target shooting. 5 shots in the black standing at the 50 in 10 seconds is better - from a fighting standpoint.
If your goal is to shoot high power type matches, disregard the above. High-power is a very demanding discipline that is dedicated to very technical precision shooting. It is extremely competitive and difficult. It is a great supplement to tactical training, but it is not training to fight.
As far as finger position on the trigger, I try to mimic the position of my finger on the trigger while pistol shooting. It keeps everything consistant. I have found that ensuring I am not slapping the trigger and controlling the trigger straight to the rear, and then controlling it back to reset, is more important than the precise position of my finger on the trigger.
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I carry my PM9 in a Comp-Tac Minotour Neutral (Appendix Carry) Cant Holster.
http://www.comp-tac.com/product_info.php?products_id=114
It is comfortable, fast, rock solid, and disappears under an untucked T-shirt and shorts. If you get the "C" clips, it works well with a tucked in shirt as well.
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For those that don't know them -
Coopers Conditions of Readiness:
Condition 4: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine, hammer down.
Condition 2: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer down.
Condition 1: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition 0: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer cocked, safety off.
These were written before striker fired pistols, but can still apply with some common sense. For example, you can't have condition 2 on any striker fired pistol. Condition 1 and 0 would be the same on a Glock (I consider the staging of the striker "cocked", for lack of a better term, even though I know it is not technically true) but both may or may not be applicable to a S&W M&P.
Bedside Pistola
G35 .40S&W with Surefire x300, Trijicon RMR02 milled into the slide, KKM Barrel, and suppressor height BUIS stored in a pistol safe bedside and in condition 1 - Full mag of 15 and one in the pipe.
An unloaded pistol makes for an expensive hammer, it may only cost you your life.
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Still haven't watched the video? The guy tells the cop the case right in the video. So no OC is NOT a reason to stop someone.
So yes a cop can come say hello, but the person can also ignore him and keep walking. Remember that whole innocent until proven guilty thing?
This is not just in Maine. Philadelphia has the exact same rule.
I have watched the vid. Have researched the cases he mentions or did you just take the kids word he was citing the correct case law? All the cases he brought up, except, Delaware v Prouse have been mentioned (DvP deals with MV stops with no other AS or PC to verify driver's licenses) and the one that is closest to approaching my question of ZERO police involvment is the one posted above by NJ2AS-LCC, US v DeBerry. But it does not seem to state no involvement, it states no search. No search was required here, the gun was in plain view. If this incident happened to someone carrying CCW that required a Terry frisk, as explained in Terry v Ohio then DeBerry would probably apply.
As far as innocent until proven guilty. No one said he was guilty. He wasn't arrested and he walks away at the end with his pistol.
IUPG doesn't mean someone can't be suspicious, and in this case I certainly don't think it means a check of the situation wasn't warranted. If he would have just given his name and DOB, as he states in his comments is required by ME law, the whole contact would have been over in 30 seconds, with no drama. He knew why the cop was stopping him. He knew people were going to call if he walked down the street with a heater on his hip. He set the cop up.
And, no, not every contact, at least in NJ, requires a report. Often times simply an entry is created in the in-house system about the contact in the event a citizen complaint comes on or a involved person wants something to refer to.
And that's the problem. This ridiculous mindset that since you can see a gun there is something illegal going on.
So maybe if the people calling 911 for no valid reason should be issued a summons for using 911 incorrectly.
I agree. The public needs a lot more education on firearms and firearms safety, and the legal maelstrom that surrounds firearm law.
Edited to comment on one more post by PeteF
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My "thank you" was sincere. I was thanking you for answering my question, not claiming victory. But, I see now that you have clarified your answer.
Here's your case:
US v. Deberry http://caselaw.findl...it/1027378.html
...and the pertinent part:
I'm not trying to convince you, just pointing out the other side. I'm happy as long as everyone is at least thinking about whether or not detaining the guy was legal. It takes a long time for this stuff to sink in. It's not necessarily intuitive.
Understood about the Thank you. However the portion of my post that you snipped from it's entirety, when stood alone appeared to point to me believing the officer was in the wrong.
Thank you for the linked case, I will read it "con mucho gusto" in its entirety.
From a quick read of the excerpt you provided, it appears that the Chief Judge is intuiting that if there was concealed carry law in Illinois the gun arrest would have been invalid because then the subject would not have been in violation of the law by carrying a concealed handgun. That seems like a common sense ruling doesn't it. Why would you arrest someone for doing something legal.
He goes on to say that in that instance there would be no grounds for a search. OK. That still doesn't preclude a contact and investigation into whether or not the individual is in fact a legal CCW holder. How did the person that called know there was a concealed weapon? Do we now have a possible brandishing charge or another possible violation to the CCW regulations to investigate? I mean, we all known bad guys carry guns too right? Even in states that allow CCW.
You are right, it is not an intuitive subject (you meant not intuitive right?) and there are many intreprations framed by everyone's frame of reference. This whole discussion has turned a bit from what I believe the OP intended, for that I am sorry. I am however enjoying the conversation and happy it has not gotten personal and devolved into name calling and finger pointing.
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I'm not saying they can't intervene, i'm saying that they cannot force a person who has done nothing wrong to comply.
What does it matter that a third party made the report? It doesn't change what the officer is and isn't allowed to do. Again, the report was a man carrying a gun, the officer said it a couple times, he said i want to make sure your not a felon which violates the court ruling in Brown V Texas. They didn't let the OCer walk away at the end because he was wrong......
If 80% of people in maine are not prohibited persons is it reasonable to suspect that someone carrying is not allowed to carry? you have a %20 chance your right. IMHO not reasonable enough. In NJ you could probably argue RAS with well below 1% being allowed to carry.
"i'm saying that they cannot force a person who has done nothing wrong to comply."
You are correct, but first the cops have to determine that the subject has, in fact, done nothing wrong. So, who makes that determination? Every criminal ever convicted states that they didn't do anything wrong. If the cops took them all at face value, what then?
As far as Texas v Brown, as I understand it, it does not apply. Again, TvB is officer initiated vs. this case a reported call. TvB listed no real AS for the stop was given by the police officers involved. I can guarantee that if he had been stopped for jaywalking and refused to give a name, or stopped to investigate because he had a gun on his hip, it would have probably been an entirely different finding.
80% Ahhhh, lies, damned lies, and statistics. Ok, 80% prohibited person rate in Maine. Thats part of the equation. Now, what's the rate for allowed persons owning prohibited weapons. What's the regs on carrying any weapons near certain properties, like asked above? Are you catching my drift at all here?
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You can not compare a privilege, driving, with a right, keeping and bearing arms.
-That was 50% of my point. How can cop a detain you when your excising a right within the law?
In fact your rights are more protected then your privileges. which is why i brought it up.
You got it backwards, stopping a car isn't AS, you need AS to stop the car and PC to write the ticket or make the arrest.
-They need RAS to make a stop, and PC to detain and search. If it is found that a law is broken then ticket/arrest follows.
Stopping people to make sure they are following the law? is that the argument your trying to make? AFAIK it is not legal for LEO's to interrogate people and detain them based on the fact that what they are doing may not be legal for everyone to do. Let's take it a step further, what is the probability that the person carrying is actually a prohibited person? If it is more probably, like say a state like NJ, you may have RAS, because far less people are actually allowed to carry. But if we do the statistics, i would gather that there is a far larger percent of people who are not prohibited then are. So again RAS goes out the window. Becuase it is more probably that the person is not prohibited.
Remember, rights are protected, not untouchable. States manipulate them all the time. Also, as example, you can lose your right to possess firearms and vote by being a convicted felon.
A cop can absolutely detain you to make certain that you are exercising your rights within the law, if they have AS. Sometimes that is as simple as saying hello and talking for a minute, other times it requires handcuffs and a trip to the local cop shop, other times it only requires someone else to flag them down or call HQ and report it.
As for yet another MV analogy - Sometimes AS and PC are together. For example a speeding ticket. Cops have AS and PC simultaneously as they personally observed the car speeding.
Sometimes they are not. A random plate check reveals the registered owner has an outstanding warrant, is unlicensed, or suspended. The cop doesn't know who is driving and a stop is made due to AS. An investigation ensues and an arrest is made, or not made, after a determination of PC. The crux being, is the registered owner in or operating the vehicle? If so, arrest. If not, "I apologize, please let the owner know they need to take care of a few things." I could give you a million examples ranging from something simple like tinted windows, to serious stuff, stolen cars. It all plays out the same basic way = AS -> PC -> investigation -> arrest, ticketing, or release.
Now, as far as prohibited persons in other states, I do not know the stats. Pretty sure you don't either. I do not know the percentages of who has what and can't have the other in every state, county, city, town, village in the nation. You are getting into areas that we will never know all the facts. That's when you trust that the local experts in this area are doing the right thing for the right reasons.
Finally, investigating a third party complaint is different than an officer initiated action. Your AS threshold is basically reduced for the initial contact, since the cops are reacting to another's observation and interpretation and not their own. In this example, the police are not stopping someone to make sure that they are following the law, the coppers are doing there jobs and investigating a report from someone else that they may not be.
This explanation may help. On an officer initiated contact, police are trying to prove a subject IS breaking a law, ordinance, code, whatever, based on their observations, suspicions, interview of the subject, evidence present etc. In a dispatched call, they are trying to determine if you weren't doing what was reported by investigating, presence of evidence and asking questions, and they already may have a witness. A slight distinction, but there none the less.
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The courts have ruled that what you think is RAS or PC in in fact NOT. And that carrying a gun does not warrant any police involvement, and people cannot be detained for simply carrying.
Show me.
Show me case law that states a report by a third party, not officer initiated contact, of a man with a gun warrants ZERO police involvement.
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Not every one can drive a car.... is it AS to stop a car to see if that person can drive? Not all cars on the road are legal, is it AS to stop every car on the road to see if it is legal?
Now when ur behind a mustang that smells like strait gasoline or the driver looks to be 13 years old you may have AS.
You got it backwards, stopping a car isn't AS, you need AS to stop the car and PC to write the ticket or make the arrest.
SAT question:
Motor vehicle law is to Firearm's law as Apples are to:
A) hand grenades
B) sneakers
C) stray cats
D) all of the above
You can not compare a privilege, driving, with a right, keeping and bearing arms. Please stop.
And, yes. Any car can be stopped if the officer has prior knowledge, articulable suspicion, or probable cause that the driver is not licensed to drive in that state.
Now, you made it difficult to respond when you answered in my quote in your post, but here it goes...
This is going to sound flippant but it is not meant that way. I understand you didn't see any suspicious activity. Now, What exactly is your experience with Maine gun laws and Maine Police SOP in regards to suspicion?
Did you know the reporting party? Were you with them when you made the call to the PD? Were you driving by this location at the same time that the reporting party made the call to Police HQ and see something they did not? In this case, neither did the dispatcher or the police, so an investigation is warranted.
As to your second point, same questions as above. In addition, is a man carrying a gun legal in Maine? All men, regardless of age, criminal history and mental background? Or just some? Are there any restrictions on firearms involving school zones, parks, incorporated vs incorporated towns, hunting seasons, bars, churches or other places of worship?
Point three: So if you call the police and say there is a man with a gun in an area, then finding a man with a gun in that area is not enough to go on? The caller has to give what? Shoe size?
Yes, the second amendment allows the carrying of firearms. I understand. I wish that the states could do nothing to infringe upon that, but they do. If you want to change that, get involved in politics, don't make a video where you taunt cops.
Profiling on the basis of race, religion, orientation or ethnicity is illegal. Profiling based on behaviour, equipment you are carrying, etc is completely legal. Carrying a gun doesn't make a potential criminal. However, a convicted felon carrying a gun, or someone carrying an illegal weapon makes him a criminal right now.
Finally, I understand what the report was. You don't understand that it being a third party report, not an Officer initiated contact changes A LOT of the rules and makes it more than enough to investigate. Not arrest on its face value, but to check it out.
Woman dies from gunshot wound caused by a hug.
in General Discussion
Posted
I think everyone knows that a statement like "a million" is an exaggeration in common usage, that simply means "quite a few" but thanks for bringing me back to Earth here. Really, much appreciated and very helpful to all involved. I am sure everyone else that read that statement thought I LITERALLY meant 1,000,000 distinct and seperate scenarios that end with a holstered firearm discharging and killing a young woman. Thanks for clearing that up
And as someone with self proclaimed:
"no experience with holsters besides what I've read"
I can see why your vast experience should limit us all to the belief that it would be:
"quite a feat to accomplish an accidental fatal chest shot, even more so with the victim behind you..."
With a holstered firearm.
The fact that I carry a firearm daily and have experience with a multitude (sorry, I have 9 seperate and distinctly different holsters that I now use on a regular basis, and a boxful in the closet that didn't fit my needs or expectations, I wouldn't want the readership to believe I was trying to lead them astray again with my use of the term "multitude") of holsters and different methods of firearm carry should clearly prevent me from interjecting there at all.
Again, many thanks to you sir, and apologies to everyone reading this thread for leading you astray by playing fast and loose with the facts. It won't happen again.