jackandjill

This would be my first AR build and just reading up a lot and trying to gather parts. I am looking at a M4 Upper Assembly from PSA with the following specs. The Flash Hider and not knowing if this is 16 barrel with or without including flash hider bothers me. Any FFL in North Jersey who does the work of replacing the Flash Hider and pinning with a Muzzle brake or something else to make it compliant ? How much can I expect to pay approx for the work ? Appreciate it. ----------------------------------------------- 16" Barrel length Chrome moly vanadium barrel 5.56 Nato Chamber 1 in 7" twist rate chrome-lined bore M4 Feed ramps F-Marked Front sight post A2 Flash Hider Sling Loop Carbine Hand Guards w/ heat sheilds Forged upper receiver T-Marks -----------------------------------------------

Some good FFLs also give discount on transfer fees if you are transferring multiple firearms at the same time. So one pistol and some long guns at the same time would need only one NICS/NJSP check. So ask the FFL if they are open to it.

I cannot recommend Jeff anymore for repeat or involved transaction. You may still go there for a one off, simple transaction.

Congratulations and good luck. You can charge little more but keep that flexibility and open mind. You dont have to risk your license but do give due attention when your customer needs. I wish I had a FFL who may charge a bit more but keeps open mind.

Thanks. I agree. My first transaction with that FFL was time consuming but pleasant. I thanked him many times for his help and told him that he got nothing but great reviews on these forums. If he is taking his general frustration of market on me for some reason, all I can say to him is that he is taking it on wrong dude. Mods, I got my answers. Please feel free to delete thread.

"buy" here means taking transfer by filling out the paper work for background check. Person A and Person B (private parties) going to FFL for the transfer where Person B is filling out paperwork and getting the transfer from Person A for his (Person B) ownership is actually encouraged by ATF (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/) - Open letter to FFLs encouraging sale of firearms between private parties at FFL.

The moment the FFL said "you made more than my fees", thats an indication for me that the motivation is something other than ethics or legal. I have been going through ATF site reading various things. Interesting thing is, right on the ATF Firearms page (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/), is an OPEN LETTER encouraging FFLs to facilitate transfer of firearms between private individuals. In fact, the letter goes onto say "ATF encourages FFLs to facilitate firearm sales between private individuals through FFL business. This service provides both customers and the community assurance that individuals who want to purchase firearms undergo a comprehensive background check". Self Governance and Ethical Practice ? When did calling another FFL and unfairly tagging an otherwise legal transaction as illegal become self governance and ethical ? If anything, its unethical to gang up and prevent an occasional person to perform the thing you as business are engaged daily. This is exactly why local buying/selling died in part and internet auction sites have become prevalent for non firearms. ---------------------------- To those who answered the legal question - Thank you. Those who called names and went by "guilty until proven innocent", - God bless you and I hope you feel better. And know this - I have sold many non firearm items on ebay or craigslist below what I bought them and gave away stuff on freecycle. You want to claim moral high ground, talk to me when you never sold anything for profit. Those who suggested I lay low - I have renewed admiration for those who come to these forums about their problems with their local PD or FID process. I can only imagine, how much they have to overcome fear of retribution if they have to publicly complain. To close this thread, barring typos, I have written up the situation to the best of my knowledge and after researching I do believe there was no legal ground for this FFL to deny this transaction. I will take the financial loss and move on.

I agree with you. All this sh*t is not worth the pennies. I found another FFL and made up my mind to move on. But not only I dont get the first purchase because of FFL refused, I get my account locked with the vendor and FFL calls second place to tell them something about me too. Let me state again, I agree with you and the pennies saved is not worth. I am ready to move on and I need this FFL to leave me alone for Pete's sake.

Yes, he still has my rifle. He is wont transfer to me, wont transfer to another person (thats where this drama originally unfolded). He is sending it back to the original seller, and told the seller something that resulted in my account with them being locked (thats where my beef about this FFL taking it too far). The FFL is in North Jersey. I found another FFL, will go about my daily work.

Yes, so you think thanking FFL in every communication, telling him I respect his decision and trying to eat up the restocking fees is my loud mouth ? By the way, I only posted on this forums AFTER I respectfully tried to resolve the situation and FFL start making implications that this was straw purchase. I have all the emails and in every one of them I told FFL that I respect his decisions. I am all ready to take those restocking fees and move on. In the line of work I do, that $100 isnt going to kill me. But going to the extent of getting my accounts locked when I tried to be respectful and open all along ? How low should I lay and quite do I stay ?

Nope. He wouldnt transfer it. As for other suggestions, I will lay low and move on. My thought process is, if one rifle purchase, and one FFL can cause so much hassle that the advice is to lay low, how anyone is going to stand up to any laws like the one in NY ? Should FFLs deny transfer service to anyone who sold ONE gun for meager profit ?

Because, I was an ASS about following the law, thinking that taking transfer of the pistol I dont need would be straw purchase, because next logical step would be selling it. Lesson learned indeed.

I already documented my saga with a FFL in another thread. Long story short, I was shocked to learn that my account with an online vendor is locked because this FFL called them and told them something. Given his mood and how far he seem to be taking this, can he negatively interfere my ability to buy gun in near future ? To be clear, I am following law to the letter (may be even more). In some sense, I am not surprised that the online vendor would take FFL word over mine, but can NJSP do same and cause trouble ? Its hard as it is with law in NJ, am I creating trouble for myself by reporting this FFL behavior on these forums ?

I apologize if I offend anyone or posted this in wrong place. My first transfer experience with Wortendyke was pleasant. But things went south after that when I wanted to sell the one I didn't need. I documented everything in separate thread on this forum. Long story short, Mr. Jeff called the online vendor I bought a rifle from and I don't know what he told them but they locked my account and I am working on refund (with costs of shipping back and restocking fees). Very unprofessional. I wouldn't do business with them again.

Reading all this, I can only imagine what you have to go through to become a FFL. You can charge more, but please do treat your otherwise law abiding customers in timely fashion and fairly. I only say this, coming out of nightmare experience with a FFL. And good luck with your business.

This is getting more bizarre. I tried to login to my account at the online vendor to ask them about refund and guess what ? " Your account has been permanently de-activated by the webmaster." I wish I am making this sh*t up, I can only imagine what Mr. Jeff at Wortendyke Arms told these guys. Should I expect a visit from some agency now ? Everyone talks about who is going to stand with who in SHTF situation. Who needs enemies when an FFL can make your life miserable on purpose ?

Thanks for the advice. No luck. I will try again on Monday. If I were the vendor, who would I go with ? The FFL who is supposed to do the right thing or a guy who bought one rifle ? And given the market, the vendor can get restocking fees AND sell it like hot cake in minutes.

I would agree that it would have been grey/red area, had I ordered a batch of these and put up for sale and line up 10 guys at FFL place. It was one damn pistol, sold for the best price out there. And for that, he sticks the return and restocking fees to me by telling the online vendor that this was straw purchase somehow. And goes further and calls to cancel the other place too.

I agree. I have two day jobs and travel, so neither I have time, need or inclination to support myself with gun profits. I exactly sold ONE, which he knows. This is is Wortendyke Arms in Midland Park. I asked him before I bought if he could order for me. Nope, not only he doesn't have in stock, but he could not order. Things went south as soon as I told him what I am selling for. He even made a comment how I made more than his transfer fee. So none of this is about legal aspect, its more about the money. I don't get how taking that frustration and turning into vigilante justice is a ethical business practice - which he want to teach me. On that sale, had he told me that he is not comfortable, I would have gladly kept that pistol, which is worth times more anywhere else.

I almost fell of the chair when saw the title - DHS and teaching self-defense in one sentence. Its like TSA and Security & Privacy

Wortendyke Arms in Midland Park. I went there after reading reference from this site. He was extremely busy during the week with his work, so not easy to reach. My first transaction went ok with one week wait time between first paperwork, NJ NICS and then he finding time out of his schedule. For simple transaction, he is ok. But the nature of sticking it to customer even after hearing the full story, not my taste. I will find some other FFL who I may pay extra, but isnt going to judge me outside the legal framework.

After this mess, I just wanted to take the transfer and go shoot at the range. Nope, the FFL doesnt want to transfer. He is not only sending it back, but called the company to tell him that somehow I may be involved in straw purchase. Guess what ? The company wants me to pay for the return shipping $25 and restocking fee. And he calls second company where I was going to get it little cheaper and tells them to cancel order. So it seems that this FFL really want to stick it to me. Vigilante Justice, more like vigilante injustice.

This was my understanding too. I didnt even take that transfer, so I didnt lie. I went there along with the buyer, answered all questions in truth, when asked, even told him truthfully what I am selling it for. Funny thing is, I sold the thing for same price as FFL had on his website (one of those davidson), but he was out of stock. The price is one of the cheapest online for this pistol. So buyer got best price, FFL got his fees but somehow I became this 'bad guy' who got a profit. After this whole thing broke out, I sent him in clear writing how this unfolded, and that I am now not interested selling the rifle after this chaos. Nope, he doesnt want to transfer. He not only calls the first company to send it back, he calls the second company (cheaper price) and tells them to cancel too. Vigilante justice, go figure.

I get it about his business risk. That's why I showed up in person when for (technically, I didnt even transfer to myself) the ONLY pistol I ever sold. I sold to the guy who did prior business with this FFL. I sold that pistol for the same price as the FFL, had it been in in stock with him. And its one of the cheapest prices online. When asked how much I am selling it, I honestly told him the price, thinking he is satisfied that this is not the straw purchase and he is comfortable with the deal. So the buyer got best price ANYWHERE in stock, FFL got his fee and I got my money back. So how exactly did I step on his tows ? - buying and selling guns ? How many ? I sold exactly ONE. Does that make me "dealing" and "illegal" ? The problem started the moment he saw price on the box and the sale price I told him. He doesnt know how many I sold with other FFLs (which is NONE). But by the same token, he also doesnt know many things about people coming to his place for transfers. How he knows people are not just buying and then selling ? He doesnt. So Instead of being open with a guy who is open with you, you go vigilante justice route and call to cancel other order and stick it to the guy ? Give a break.

Update on the situation. Even after putting everything in writing and explaining, the FFL would not agree for the transfer. He is shipping the firearm back and took up on himself to call the second place where I found the rifle cheaper to tell them not to ship either. Lessons learned: 1. Don't try a complex transaction with FFL that you don't know. You will be scre*wed. 2. Run from any FFL who acts like they are doing you a favor. Simple fact is, they are going to judge you. Pay few bucks extra somewhere else and preserve your peace of mind. God forbid if there is ever a law about FTF transactions going through FFL.