tsafa

Sure. The way that it is going to have to work is that while person is downrange all guns will be unloaded and resting on a table I set up. No one can touch the guns while I am walking downrange with a shooter. When your turn comes, you will first tell me what you are are looking to do. You will then walk up to the table with me, load your pistol and holster it. You then proceed down course (with me behind you), draw with muzzle pointed in safe direction, and shoot on the targets. Only unholster when NOT MOVING. Reason is that I don't want you to trip on a rock as you upholster and shoot your foot. Please use extra care with any 1911's or single action pistols. Keep the safety on until you are on your target. When you get to the end of the range unload, clear and holster. For people not using holsters, you will keep the pistol pointed into the ground as you move down range. At the end of the course, after you unload, clear and lock open... you will walk back with the muzzle pointed straight up. So... muzzle down when going downrange, muzzle up when the gun is clear and you are walking back. For rifles, you may have a sling on the rifle, but you may not sling over your shoulder while it is is loaded. You may start off with the rifle on your shoulder and unloaded, then unsling and load on the course. The reason for that is that unslinging off the shoulder does not allow the same level of control that upholstering does. My concern is that as you unsling, you will flash me with your muzzle. Remember, you will not be walking over a hardwood floor. You may trip over one of the thousand rocks as you unsling your rifle. Eventually, what I want to do is have people go go down range with both a pistol and a longgun. When they run out of ammo in the longgun they can sling it and draw their pistol to continue. That is the way it is suppose to work. However, since this is the first time I am running this, I want to take it slow. So only one firearm on the course at a time. When we take a break, we can discus safe ways to do more advanced things on the next Shootout. (Edit: I will allow two revolvers or pistols to be shot together with the use of a two holsters.) In addition I would like people to list what firearms, ammo and the number of rounds they are likely to bring. This will help me get a better image in my head of the scale of this event.

Not at all. It is natural that any date I set would interfere will at least one persons schedule. If this works out well I will plan other Group Shoots in the future. The following Group Shoot after this will be an "Arctic Shoot". Bring your thermals.

I am making an exception to the "no outside ammo" rule on Sept 26 for the NJGF Group Shoot. You can bring your own guns and ammo and only pay $30. No .22 on the Zombie Course. The Zombie Course is for big boy ammo only (9mm and higher). If you do happen to run out of ammo, and I have what you need in stock, I will sell you some. This will also give people an opportunity to try other guns out, because if you buy ammo from me, you get a gun to shoot it. However, this activity will be reserved for the end of the day when every one is done shooting the ammo they came with. Wolfy, I thought about your concern while at the range this weekend. Time should not really be an issue for everyone who is on the range by 10:30. The way it would naturally work out is that if only two people were to show up, they would in all likeliness be done shooting withing an hour or two. The key here is that every one must be on the range at 10:30 for a safety debriefing and ready to shoot at 11am. If someone shows up at 11:05, they will have to wait 30 to 40 minutes until I call a ceasefire and can give them a safety debriefing. Now if someone shows up at 2pm, that is fine too, they will have to wait till we call a ceasefire for their safety debriefing. One important difference here is that for the guys that show up at 10:30am I would be willing to extend the range time so they can shoot out all their ammo. The guys that show up at 2pm... well I will make sure they get a good amount of shooting in. I think this is fair. Don't forget to bring your mom's old pots and pans. It will make the course more fun. It will also speed up the amount of time people take to more through it so people don't have to wait on line very long. I have updated my website with the Group shoot information. I have referenced NJGF. http://www.poconotactical.com/ Look it over and let me know if there is anything there that seems different then what we have talked about. Thanks. This is no longer an issue. Everyone pays just $30. I have resolved the concern the Wolfy had above. This accomplishes two things... it puts a set cap on what each person will pay. It also allows for the possibility that I might get more then 20 people and raise some more money to get the course finished faster. If there is anyone reading this who does not have their own gun to shoot but would like to participate. PM me. You must be an experienced shooter already. I will arrange for you to be at the course at 10am before everyone is there. I will provide you with a gun and ammo at my regular prices. You need to get there early, so I can train you ahead of time how to use the gun. Reminder: The Zombie course is only for experienced shooters. When you arrive, Do NOT Uncase your firearm or load it until you are told to by the Range Officer (me).

double post Mod, please delete.

Poll is a great idea. I think only the OP can set the poll up. I have already posted on other websites as $30 per person... so if its going to go the other way I need to change my posts. Lets get the poll done ASAP.

Yeah, I think it will work out much better this way and people don't have to worry about other people showing up to make this work. It will be $30 per person on Sept 26 starting at 11am. The number of people that show up will determine how long the shoot runs.

I just want to thank you again for hooking me up with this group. A really nice bunch of guys here. I have been a member of PAFOA for a while now. I will make a post over there and see if they want to join in. I was thinking today, that I think it might be easier to just set a range fee of $30 for whoever comes that day at 11am. If we get 20 people then we run till 5pm as planned. If we only get 10 people, then we cut the time in half so the shootout would run until 2pm. If 5 people show up then the shootout will run for an hour and a half. Two people would get an hour. What do you guys think of this arrangement. I think it takes the pressure off as far as "we must have 20 people" or cancel. I think it will also be easier to pitch over at PAFOA who have not had the privilege of watching this outing develop to its current form.

lol, I have been working out for about 25 years. There are no muscles in your fingers to strengthen. What is in there is mostly tendon. What you need to do is strengthen your forearm which pull the tendons that close your fingers. Standard wrist curls is a good start that will only get you so far. The body needs to be developed in total, starting with the big muscles of the legs, back and chest.

Heck no... a shooting range needs shooters! I am thinking we might set aside the last Sunday of each month for a NJGF shoot. If the turnout numbers start becoming low, perhaps we can team up with the people over at PAFOA. The goal should be to keep the number of people just above 20 in order to keep the cost to each individual down. If the number starts to exceed 40, then we plan two days because I don't think people will appreciate a supper cheap price if they don't get to do enough shooting do to waiting on line. So what do you guys think about he first Sunday of each month? Lets get this going. We will need to make a thread the week before to see who wants to commit to participate in the NHGF shoot out.

Thanks Wolfy. Hay... no one answered my question in the other thread. Would people here still be willing to run the Zombie Course in the winter when it is 10 degrees outside and there is two feet of snow? Is Arctic Combat something people here are interested in? It gets very cold up there. Snow does not melt in the winter months, it just accumulates. Does anyone have access to Steel Barrels and a pick up truck they can bring them? I figure in the winter we can throw some wood in the Barrels and create a few warm spots.

It is more of big backward soft "S". The curve naturally hinders the targets, so no need for barricades. The walls and ground are also uneven so that as you approach a pot hidden in that spot will not be visible until you get close. When you get to the end, you unload and lock open before walking back. When you come back and put you gun on the table the next guy loads and goes. Under no circumstances does anyone face in the direction of the starting point with a loaded firearm. I will be standing behind the shooter too. I will follow each shooter up and down the course to insure safety. Two things I just thought of. When you guys come, you will each bring two old pots to be used as targets. This will do cut down on the time of scoring and setting targets. It will be easier to recognize if you hit the targets because they will move. The movement will also be good, because the next time you go up the targets will be in a totally different position. Another thing I just realized is that my NRA Insurance is for while giving instruction. That means I must be within vision of the each shooter when he is shooting (so I can give instruction if any is needed). What I can not do is let you guys shoot on your own, because that would not not be covered. I believe my insurance may extend to any Range Safety Officers I create through the NRA as a Chief Range Officer. I have to look into that, but that would be a 6 hour course I give with a written test submitted to the NRA. In short, I believe over time we could keep at least the pistol range running while people are on the Zombie course, but that is something I need to plan and prepare for.

That is a minor detail that can easily be worked out. I have a 3 bedroom house on the property and no wife or kids... I am sure I can find some place (like maybe those two empty bedrooms) to store your hi capacity 100 round drums, lol. Yeah, I forgot to mention that the 30 round mags will be for the newbies on my range Seriously though, the bigger issue that I am going to have to work out over the next few months is the prices. There was some resistance in the other thread to the pricing schedule as I have it set up now. I herd some people say they were comfortable with a group shoot where I charge $600 for a 6 hour shoot and they bring their own guns and ammo. The $600 would be split up among the group, so that 20 people would pay $30 each. That money in turn would be reinvested into the range. I'm definitely not making enough money to cover all my expenses any time soon, but at least this will help. The benefit of doing it this way is that it is cheaper for the shooters. The downside is that it can be difficult to get 20 people to coordinate their schedules. The other issue is that while I can get 5 or 6 people shooting at once on the pistol and rifle range, when we go to the Zombie Course there can only be one shooter at a time. The Pistol and Rifle range will be closed because the entrance to the Zombie Course is halfway down the rifle range. Its just how the property is set up and I can't change that. However... the Zombie Range is expanding in a direction away from the rifle range. So when it gets to be 1,500 feet long, we can close off 600 feet of section near the rifle range and get both going at the same time. If we manage to run two or three of these NJGF Shoots successfully and everyone is happy, you can start buying Hi-Cap mags and leaving them with me.

It takes me 2 hours to get there from Brooklyn if there is no traffic. I take the turnpike to I78, to 24, to I80.

Rifles are perfectly fine right now. Rapid fire is totally cool too. There must have been a misunderstanding with regard to the rifles. Infact, I tried to use my concealed carry pistol yesterday and found that it was somewhat useless. I went from being a very good shot on a standard pistol range to a very lousy shot in a tactical situation. Shooting tactical is very different. I definitely plan to use a rifle the next time I am on the range.

Well... like I said before, at this point it is a very basic 150x20 foot curvy trench that is 8 feet deep. It will not reach the level of awesomeness that I have envisioned until it goes 600 feet and the bushes grow in to hide the targets. For now the benefit that you have over a regular range is that you can move forward through it and shoot to the sides. I don't know of any other ranges in the area that are set up like this. If people come with high expectations, they will be disappointed right now because the range is not complete. If they come thinking that they are going to a regular shooting range, they will be very impressed with the additional capabilities of this range. Just to further illustrate... the zombie course is actually 180 feet long but I only list it as 150 feet on my website because I really don't want people to be disappointed. I am considering that people in practice will only walk in 150 feet. They are not going to actually walk up to the end of the trench and touch the wall.

I wanted to have something like this in NY, but they would not let me... So I left them. Now NY no longer gets my tax money The range in about 30 minutes from the NJ border when you cross into PA on I80. btw... I can see that there are some really cool people on this board. I'm glad Px4storm, hooked me up with you guys.

Thanks for opening the thread EchoMirage. I will repost some of what I said in the other thread for the benefit of people who had not seen the discussion in the other thread. The relative posts are: I am looking for any input people have to offer.

I found myself very surprised yesterday as I went through the zombie course with my Keltec P11. I am normally a pretty decent shot on a standard pistol range, but when you start moving and shooting at multiple targets its a totally different ball game. My mistake for thinking I was good enough to clear it out with small pistol. Next time I will use a rifle. I taught myself a nice lesson in humility. BTW, I love your signature line. That is why I plan to make the AK the primary range-gun for the Zombie Course.

It is up the road from the intersection of Rt 196 and Rt 423. It is a new address so I don't think google has updated it yet. im sure if there was a NJ ZED group day, we'd have the entire range/property to ourselves, and not have any regular customers there. it would be a range rental, rather then just showing one day at cherry ridge. so we'd all be doing the zombie course, or something. any pics/layout of what this zombie course is like? is it just different targets propped along the range, or is it more of a 'kill house' type setup? I just finished digging it out. It is nothing more then a big 150x20 curvy trench at this point that is 8 feet deep. What it offers is the ability to safely shoot to the sides as you move through it. This is not something you can do on a standard range. The targets are simple paper targets over propped up plywood. With time and money I will be able to develop it further. As soon as I am done digging out another 300 feet (+4K), I will buy some steel targets that fall back when you shoot them (+4K). In its current condition people may not be very impressed if they show up expecting to shoot on the zombie course... but will be very impressed coming to just shoot on a standard range and find their is a Zombie Course available too. I guess its a matter of perception. I think it might be better if you guys just wait an let me finish so you are impressed with it, rather then come now and be disappointed. It will definitely be complete by spring 2011. I am also wondering... the conditions at Mt. Pocono through the winter can be 10 degrees with two feet of snow. How many people would want to go through the Zombie course in those conditions?

The property can be seen on google maps, but there are no clear boundary lines. All you see is trees. It will only be clear when you guys come over. I am defiantly limited by a number of factors and must work with what I have. Thanks VJF915. I was not insulted in anyway and I appreciate all input I get.

Sure. Just remember that for safety reasons, only one person can shoot on the Zombie Course at a time. During that time the pistol and rifle range are closed because the entrance to the Zombie course is half way down the rifle range. Shooting starts after 11 am, so we don't become a noise nuisance and can run till about 5pm when the sun starts setting. After, we can lock up the guns, start a campfire and pop a few beers, invite some girls to dance around the campfire The address is 1574 Route 196, Tobyhanna, PA 18466. It may not come up on mapquest because it is less then a year old. I don't post the address on the poconotactical.com webpage because I don't want people just showing up. The range is only operational when I am there. I will leave it up to you guys to work out among yourselves which day you want to come. When you do so, please have one person in your group collect the money in advance... otherwise you will find yourselves with some last minute cancellations and the other groupmembers having to pay a larger share of the bill. This is a common problem with NRA courses I have given.

hmmmmmm I think the zombie course will be a work in progress for sometime. Bill would have to subsidize it by teaching noobs for a while and investing slowly in the zombie course... just my thought... yahh... that is what I figured... :cry: ...but it seems to be working... at slow pace... which is better then no progress at all. I sent the NRA an email regarding the mater. Waiting to hear back. We can do a group shoot. On a wed I would ask for $400. On a weekend I would ask for $600. If you can get 20 people in your group that is only $30 per person on a weekend. We can get up to five experienced shooters on the line at a time. If you guys want to try the Zombie Course, all other shooting must stop. We can run it from 11 till 5pm with your guys bringing your own guns and ammo. That money would help me get the excavator back to the range sooner rather then later.

I understand... but unless the Obama administration is willing to subsidize the range...NOT... the range has to finance itself... otherwise there can be no Zombie Range. It may turn out that in the longrun only newbies will be willing to spend the money to keep it going, as they have been. In that case I will have to shift more time and resources to fit their needs. I don't know yet, I am working this out as I go along. The feedback I am getting here is a great help me already. Thanks much.

Having one or two of you help me over a holiday weekend would be a great idea. I sometimes get groups of 12 newbies or more. I wouldn't charge anything to let you shoot on the range on that day. Only issue is, I don't know when those people will show up. Most people just call me about an hour ahead and ask if the range is available. So it would be a matter of sitting around for hours waiting for people to show up. Sure you would shoot some rounds, but when your ammo runs out... your still waiting for people to show up. This idea has some potential and I will think about it some more. Thanks very much for the suggestion. For now the biggest issue is moving a few hundred tons of dirt. It would take a thousand of us, working everyday, months to complete with pick and shovel. The easiest way to get that done is by renting a big expensive machine. I already charged up 2k this month on my credit card for the machine to dig out the 150 feet. I will have to wait until next month to bring the machine back when I have some more money. I don't know how, this will go over... but since the problem right now is financing the continued construction... I am thinking if anyone wanted to contribute $100... I would give them one whole month of unlimited shooting on the range during the weekend with their own guns and ammo. $200 would get them two months of weekend shooting (10 am to 5pm).... $300 for three months... and so on... If 20 people committed to this and came over this weekend with money, I would be able to bring the excavator back next weekend and dig another 200 feet. That way you would have the use of longer range for the money you put in. If you guys want, you can come to the property this weekend and look over the work I have done so far. I will be able to better explain where it is going.

Hi px4storm, This is Bill from Poconoshooting. It was nice taking to you today. Thanks for posting the info here and sending me the link to this forum. I got a new site up relative to the Zombie Range. http://www.poconotactical.com/ Both the webpage and the range itself will be underdevelopment for the next few months. Both are usable in their current form. A few words about me so everyone know where I am shooting from (pun intended) I'm just a regular guy, with a regular job that likes to shoot and hated living in anti-gun NYC where I was born and grew up. I bought a property out in PA so I can own and shoot guns. At some point I decided I wanted to both expand the range for my personal use and share the fun with other people. I have always believed that the key to keeping and expanding gun rights is to bring in new people (who don't shoot) and get them involved in shooting and gun ownership. The newbies and inexperienced shooters are most important because they will turn into voters for pro-gun rights candidates. This is one of the reasons I encourage people to bring their wives, girlfriends and even kids. That's right... on my range minors are allowed to shoot too under my guidance and supervision. Those kids are future voters! Now... with regard to the prices... a very fair question. My biggest cost is not the ammo. Not even the guns. My biggest cost is Time. From the time the newbie arrives at my range it typically takes 90 minutes to shoot 100 rounds of .22. When that 90 minutes has finished the average wife, girlfriend or 10 year old can now safely and competently shoot a .22 rifle and a .22 revolver. All for the cost of $50. That money does not go and sit in a bank account. It gets reinvested back into the Range in the form of expansion and more guns. What about Advanced Shooters on a Zombie course? I did some test runs today over the 150 foot course I have so far to see how it would likely run. In order for this to work, I, as the Range Safety Officer, would have to follow the shooter through the course. Unlike, a regular range, it will take 3 to 4 times longer to shoot the same quantity of ammo as the shooter searches out the targets down range. This is with the range free of any foliage. When the bushes start to grow in (and I lengthen the range) it will easily take 10 times longer. Also, unlike a regular pistol or rifle range, there can only be one active shooter at a time on a Zombie Course because the shooter is moving. Having two active shooters presents a danger I can not control since their is no fixed line. So as you can see... even with advanced shooters, the range time consumption goes up on a Zombie Course. That also means that since I must be present on the Zombie Course, I can not be training those all important newbies. It is worth noting also that at that money paid by those newbies has gone into building the Zombie Course. It cost $2,000 just to rent the excavator over the weekend and dig out the course... Not to mention the 30 hours I spent doing the digging. If I had paid a contractor it would have cost upwards of $6,000 just for the 150 feet... and I still want to dig out another 300 feet. Then there is the cost of the steel targets I would like to get that run an average of $150 to $200 each ($400 for the real good ones). I will need at least 20 of them. Preferable 40. That's 8K for the cheaper ones. I don't want to publicize it on the webpage, but if someone wants to bring there own guns and ammo, I will give them a discount. However, like I mention since I buy ammo in bulk, my biggest cost is not ammo. It is time. To give an example, I normally charge $30 for a box of 9mm with a gun to shoot the 50 rounds. If someone wants to come to my range with their own gun and ammo to shoot, I would charge $20 for every box they shoot. They get a $10 discount for the 9mm. I just wanted to lay all my cards on the table, because I respect you guys. Now that you all know what is involved, I am open to any and all suggestions and advice. In the meantime... I will start reading through this long thread to see what I can pick up in the form of advice. Thank You Kindly, Bill Tsafa http://www.poconotactical.com/