e92m3allday

ATF = judge, jury, and executioner. So does this mean to continue to measure it collapsed for adjustable braces or measure it removed? Because the letter says non-adjustable braces are to be measured removed, and foldable braces folded, but what about adjustable braces? Also collapsed? The difference is negligible anyways.

Will you guys have a .300 Blk version in 11.5”?

Anyone who wants to build your own (like I did a year ago), shouldn’t have to justify it either. I already have two buddies that are going to buy MM’s SBF, solely because of me. And trust me, I love building my own ARs and it’s usually the first thing I recommend to anyone getting into ARs. It doesn’t have to be an issue of support, but rather just preference. MM’s quality is on point, I see them all the time at Reloaderz (work there). But I love building my own ARs exactly how I want them. It’s preference, and there’s no shame in going either way.

I just hope that the companies (that are selling these firearms) who sent the NJSP an email framed the question the proper way. Because if NJSP says no, they would greatly benefit. The emails regarding assembling firearms should be framed with the XO-26 ATF letter in mind, where the ATF says yes it’s legal to construct your own. I posted that letter on page two.

The A2 flash hider only adds ~1.2 inches to the 10.5” length. It is 1.75” long, but you’re forgetting that the FH goes on to threads. That’s why standard birdcages don’t make 14.5” barrels the legal 16” length. So an 11.5” would be about 26.1” OAL at the minimum.

An 11.5” should do the trick. You have to measure from end of brace collapsed to end of threads.

And it’s not illegal on the state level either. There is literally ZERO law that anyone is breaking when doing so. I whole heartedly disagree with whoever at NJSP provided the interpretation, that they must be transferred as a complete other firearm. In that case, making any other legal class of firearms (rifles and pistols) out of a receiver would be illegal as well. Either way, someone said Stockholm syndrome before, couldn’t agree more...

I have to take back my statement. I’m genuinely confused though. It doesn’t say to, I assumed it because a 12.5” barrel with the brace extended would be 30”+. That is how they should have measured it, per the ATF. It was 28” OAL for the DSI and 26.5” for the Troy. A 12.5” barrel should be roughly 27” OAL from the buffer tube. The DSI has some cheek rest on it and probably had an extended buffer tube. So that maybe explains the DSI’s 28”. But the TROY OAL was 26.5” which, doesn’t make sense because a 12.5” barrel will be > 27” even from the buffer tube. I honestly think the Troy is an 11.5” barrel. In the letter, the Troy specs says 10.5” rail, and if you look at the picture there is no way it’s a 12.5” barrel. Either way, collapsed or from buffer tube is probably the safest bet, using this information.

11.5 pinned will 100% meet the requirement. I'm just trying to figure out if a 11.5" would, w/o having to pin and weld. It may fall just short, unless you get a slightly longer tube.

I disagree with this, but that’s just me. Can’t say I wasn’t right before, either.

UPDATE. I got the letter. LINK HERE. From the NJSP: "The New Jersey State Police Firearms Unit finds that the submitted Troy Industries A4 "other firearm" as well as the Dark Storm Industries DS-15 Non-NFA Firearm Typhoon are legal for sale in the State of New Jersey and are NOT considered to be an "assault firearm." This opinion is based upon the two firearms reviewed, however if the design or dimensions change from those samples, it may change the classification of the firearm. ". From the ATF: "In conclusion, correspondence from our Branch is dependent on the particular facts,designs, charactersitics or scenarios presented. Please be aware that although other cases (submissions to our Branch) may appear to present identical issues, this correspondence pertains to a particular issue or item. We caution against applying the guidance in this correspondence to other cases, because complex legal or technical issues may exist that differentiate this scenario or finding from others that only appear to be the same. This determination is based on the sample as submitted. If the design, dimensions, configuration, method of operation, or materials used were changed, this classification would be subject to review." OAL: According to the measurements, they measure OAL from the buffer tubes. My opinion. I may have an unpopular opinion on this. First thing first, the GOOD news is that our state literally just acknowledged the LEGALITY of non-NFA firearms in NJ!!! That shit is f*cking huge in of itself. Like holy shit man. That is f*cking amazing..... Now, let's talk about this. The two sections of the letters are very clear to caution everyone not to use these letters to justify the legality of other firearms. It's pretty straightforward. Don't try and use this letter to justify why a AR pistol is legal, because the letter of the law is VERY specific as to why non-NFA firearms are legal, and the average folk may not realize that something as simple as removing a VFG would make it illegal. We are talking about a category of arms that would be a federal crime to own if it was only 0.60 inches shorter or if the VFG was taken off. OBVIOUSLY they are going to say this. They have to urge everyone to be careful, because the lines are already so god damn blurred with these senseless gun laws. It's pretty simple. Do NOT remove the VFG, DO NOT put a stock on it, it HAS to be >26". The gun is legal in its STRICT format. Any small variation (no VFG grip, shorter barrel, etc) will make it illegal! The ATF letter mentions if any of the following are changed, they would be subject to another review. NONE OF THEM SHOULD CHANGE REGARDLESS. design (non-NFA firearm designed to be used with two hands) dimensions (HAS to be greater than 26") configuration (NEEDS A BRACE, and a VFG) method of operation (semi-automatic, not automatic) materials (metal, plastic, same materials) The important takeaway for me is this. We know the LAW because they literally spent the whole letter explaining it for us. They then told us it was legal to own and purchase. That is literally a done deal. Some people may get scared from building their own because of this letter, I personally see this as a green light. You know what is legal, you know what is not. If you are scared of building your own because you want the states little stamp of approval, then I guess you should send in all your guns to NJSP! But in all seriousness, I simply cannot find a single law that would prevent us from doing so. The guidelines of legality are set SUPER straight, even by our own draconian AG's office and NJSP. Stripped lower receivers are marked as OTHER on the 4473, which is exactly what these non-NFA firearms are processed as. We are in NJ though so, the general disclaimer is to be a gun owner at your own peril

According to the letter released on the legality of the non-NFA firearms, NJSP/ATF measured it from buffer tube to the end of barrel threads (or muzzle device if pinned). Until today I couldn't figure it out either.

Yes, as answered above. That updated Reddit post was my post by the way. As soon as we get them in at Reloaderz, I’ll have all the information for you guys and I will grab a copy of that NJSP letter as well. Can’t wait to see these things in the hands of N.J. gun owners.

Yup. 11.5” is good to go also. 10.5” is good to go too, in my opinion. The only why reason Connecticut’s non-NFA (“other”) firearms have 12.5” barrels is because their AWB statute defines semi-autos with detachable magazines that are less than 30” in OAL as assault weapons. NJ does not have such a law, yet. (It is one of the laws Murphy is trying to pass.) What this means though is that you can have a shorter barrel, as long as the firearm is is 26” OAL. Now I must mention that there is some debate and controversy on how to properly measure OAL. Some people feel it is safer to measure from buffer tube. Some measure from the brace in the extended most position, and I believe this is the correct way. The ATF has always extended the brace (as well as stocks) when taking measurements of firearms. The Franklin Armory XO-26 letter I posted in this thread earlier says to extend and measure from the rearmost position. There is also another email from the ATF, explicitly instructing to extend the brace when measuring. This matters because if you want a 10.5” barrel, following their way is good to go. But If you want to play it safe and measure from buffer tube for whatever reason, 10.5” will be just shy of 26” unless you pin the muzzle device. Another thing I wanted to mention, because these are firearms and not rifles, pistols, or shotguns, they do not follow AWB’s. So flash hiders are good to go.

Whoever does reach out, direct it to Det. Sgt. Brett Bloom, #5239. Not only is he educated, but he is a supporter of our 2A rights.

@JackDaWack I agree. Well, I’ll tell you what. After attending his gun law seminar today, I actually truly understand the extent to which NJ treats you guilty until proven innocent when it comes to guns. It’s not just a NJ proverb, it’s actually their legitimate litigation process for firearms. The burden of proof is literally on the innocent gun owner. If you are pulled over and an officer sees a rifle case, an asshole cop can literally get you for possession. You must now prove your innocence to the judge because a cop didn’t want to take your word that you were “coming back from the range”. We live in a state where if you commit murder, the state must prove that you’re guilty. But if you own a gun lawfully, you must prove to them that you’re not guilty. It’s despicable. The way I see it, if I need to prove my innocence in the first place for any reason, then I’m already jammed up. Might as well fight for something that’s worth it. There’s no law defining these firearms as illegal no matter which way you put it. Call me stupid, but it’s worth the risk to me.

So I attended the event today. I asked Evan Nappen about the legality regarding firearms, including the Franklin Armory models. He said he loves Franklin Armory and regarding the firearms "i love it, it's like loopholes extraordinaire," however he advised to wait for a letter from NJSP, because basing it on the ATF( which changes things on a whim), is not as strong a defense as having NJSP if it lands in a courtroom.This is exactly what I expected him to say. Regarding the Pantano case, he kind of gave me a general reply. He didn't hear the Koch grant part of my question, because he started to answer my question immediately. He basically said what we already know, that the NJ supreme court granted cert, then the Drake decision took place and got what they wanted so they decided not to hear it. The Q&A portion of the event was kind of rushed a bit, so I couldn't redirect him to answer about taking it to SCOTUS. He then described how the timing of getting a conservative replacement in the high court may be perfect with the timing of one of the NRA backed CCW lawsuits being granted cert, including the one recently filed by ANJRPC.

Well, damn. If only we had a pro-2A version of George Soros funding these things. Money talks, man. I’m learning a lot about Evan Nappen these days, sheesh. I will ask him about the Pantano case for sure, I just hope he shows up and gives reasonably thorough answers.

On the 16th at ANJRPC, he will be there for a gun law seminar. I intend to ask him there.

I really hope this catches on. Many in the NJ 2A community remain dubious (and with good reason), this shows me that we have some time before this can become somewhat normative in NJ, which is expected. To clarify on the Franklin Armory XO-26 model one more time: this is not the smooth bore model that Franklin Armory released. The smooth bore model is the Franklin Armory Reformation model, which is considered a firearm because of the lack of traditional rifling. The Franklin Armory XO-26 model on the other hand, is considered a "firearm" not because of a smooth bore (it has rifling), but because it exceeds 26", has a VFG, and has a brace. This makes it not a pistol, because it is designed to be used with two hands (VFG), but not a rifle because it is not designed to be shouldered (brace). Technically, aren't frames/receivers supposed to be transferred as "other" anyways?

The shockwave review by the NJSP already acknowledges the legality of “firearms.” Quote from the letter: “Firearms with similar design and structure must fall within this definition of a firearm and must not have been manufactured as a “shotgun” (NJSA 2C:39-1n) or meet the Federal requirement of “any other weapon (AOW)” which measures less then 26 inches in overall length. The firearm must also comply with all BATF requirements.” We have to treat “firearms” as a class of weapons just as we do rifles, shotguns, and pistols. The ATF letter for the Franklin Armory XO-26 clarifies all of this. If we could get a NJSP letter on the Franklin Armory model, then I would say we would be way safer, I agree. I’ve attached the ATF letter that is shipped with every XO 26 firearm.

I'm not so sure of the exact logistics in regards to how to get the stripped receiver in possession without it ever being a pistol or a rifle. If I were to purchase the Franklin Armory Reformation model that RTSP sells, I am sure that the same process is used if I were to build a "firearm" myself from a stripped receiver. I am not an FFL so I do not know the exact specifics. What I do know is that stripped receivers are checked off as "other." It is then up to the owner to complete the build lawfully. If someone could clarify on the process as an FFL, please do. I have to say that I definitely expected more support here. I know NJ law is murky as hell, so the concern many of you have is genuine. I plan on going to medical school somewhere I can enjoy my 2A rights freely. But in the meantime, I plan on building one and being as proactive as I can. There is no other way we can stand up to this crappy state if we all just freeze up and get scared when an opportunity arises. I think the entire community would be better off if we all stuck together on these issues. But we don't, because we're all scared. So instead those who take the risks are struck with the evil eye and told to "be careful." I'm sick of it. As the law currently stands, these builds fit perfectly into the loophole. They aren't defined as rifles, because they don't have stocks. They aren't defined as pistols, because it is intended to be fired with two hands. It isn't intended to be shouldered, but doing so wouldn't change the classification of the weapon even if one did so (ATF reversed that ruling). It therefore can not be subject to AWB because it is not a shotgun, pistol, or a rifle. I definitely will be consulting Evan Nappen shortly to get some advice on this. I'll keep you all posted if I get something significant.

They aren't relying on the Franklin Armory 'Reformation' model (the smooth bore model). They are relying on the Franklin Armory XO-26 R2 model. This model is classified as a "firearm" because it is >26" and is designed to be fired with two hands due to the VFG, so it is not a pistol. If it was < 26" it would be an NFA item, an Any Other Weapon (AOW) specifically. The weapon meets the "firearm" criteria so long as the weapon never existed as a rifle. Hence, the Franklin Armory model is a great design because it is sold complete as a "firearm" out of the factory, so there is no chance of it being misclassified.