Joelk

For all of you unwilling to "test non-shooting skills" what the F*%k do you think a violent criminal encounter in NJ is going to test? I will agree that a lot of classes in NJ suck, and some are good. At best, as James Yeager says, a class is your down payment on a skill, and it is your responsibility to make the monthly payments after that. As far as what matches I have tried, it has been a variety of IDPA, local steel matches, 3 gun, 2 gun (Tosser's USANA matches), and I've won some, done OK in some, but never finished in the lower half in anything. Like I said before, whatever match the group picks I will play. That said, while I will play your game, it seems that everyone is scrambling to avoid playing my (reality based) game. I must say that all of you worried about my knife/unarmed skills must not know me, as I am one of the most uncoordinated people you have ever met. That said, if we fight I will not quit, and I may take your gun and shoot you with it, not because I have more training/skills than you, but because I want to win whatever the game may be.

Whatever the game is, I will offer all the airsoft gas and ammo needed, 1 airsoft Glock 19, and 1 Glock 17t(Sims), all of the Simunitions ammo needed, and if we aren't being little bitches, rubber/training knives. If you really want to man up I will bring swine prod (like a cattle prod but shorter) to simulate knife wounds

Well that post just made me reply one last time tonight(technically this morning ) Shane gave you an example of where an officer got killed due to a training scar, and while it may not be a particular training scar you have from your gun games, you have admitted to multiple training scars/bad tactical habits instilled in matches which could all cause you to screw the pooch in a real fire fight, but you somehow think you will rise above your habits in a real fight, while many studies say you will default to your training. I must also say that while you may say that "the average shooter will never attend a training class" you may be correct, as there are millions of "shooters", but I would be interested in seeing how many shooters attend training vs how many shooters compete. Are you interested in a bet of how many shooters have competed/how many shooters have attended a training class?

Vlad, I will happily participate in whatever "test" the group comes up with, and I will donate the use of my Sims Glock 17T (which approximates real recoil). I will say that reality may involve "wrestling" as you put it, knives, multiple attackers, uneven initiative, but if you want to make it into a force on force version of a gun game I will still play, but I don't know what validity it will have as a test if we take all of the reality out of it and just replicate a gun game. I guess that I am saying that shooting fast and accurately is only good once you get to that stage, and I think that many are lacking the skills needed to deal with verbal, grappling, knives, etc, to get to the stage where shooting fast and accurate matter. In other words, if a criminal comes up to you, approaches you via verbal ruse, and knocks you out, all off your gun skills are useless. All of your gun game confidence just got you killed/robbed/raped/etc. I am sorry if I have not responded to every issue in your post, but it is getting late, and I am getting buzzed If you have any particular issue you would like me to address, I will be happy to do so tomorrow after work.

Vlad, I don't have any particular test, and I don't have anything to prove, I just hope to get some people to think about the realistic application of firearms in a self defense scenario. If you think about it, and then disagree with me, I am still happy as I, hopefully, got you to think about things from another perspective. Concerning the topic of "Can gun games get you killed" I think that I have pointed out that gun games teach skills, and instill confidence, that are completely unrelated to realistic self defense scenarios. The competitive practices that I see as the most potentially dangerous are the poor use of cover and concealment, shooting a prescribed number of rounds as opposed to as much as is required to put the bad guy down, and general combative mindset issues. In reality you keep fighting no mater what, while competition teaches you to quit if you time out, do too badly, or flub a stage. Second Edit/Addition: Please go back and check out my post (#24 in the thread) about knocing down reactive targets. Edited to add: Competition also teaches you to play by the rules (you may stretch them, but you try to stay within them) while in reality you do whatever you need to do to win the fight.

You know I will do whatever everyone else wants, but I will try to open some people's eyes up to other points of view. I know I had a rude awakening the first time I took a good FOF class, and realized that it didn't matter how good I was with a gun (not that I am very good) if I couldn't draw in it a FUT (fucked up tangle, courtesy of SouthNarc). I can really bore you all and say that our verbal skills managing unknown contacts are more important than our combative skills and in jersey our knife skills are more important than our gun skills as most of us can't carry anyway :thsmiley_deadhorse:

I am sorry, but I thought the topic of "Can gun games get you killed" implied real life scenarios. In real life criminals tend to attack in groups, up close, and may use knives, fists, guns, etc. Gun games are played at distance, against static paper, steel, or maybe steel that moves in a predetermined pattern. Real life crime tends to be up close, personal, violent, and fast. Do you guys want to do some kind of FOF version of a gun game, or are we going to do our best to recreate real situations in FOF? You may have a great drawstroke when standing facing a target, but can you draw with an opponent grappling with you, or even worse stabbing you? You had better have skills to deal with that knife first, or you may die while trying to draw your pistol.

I will bring a few training knives so we can check that concept as well but I will agree that a knife, mounted close to the centerline, so as to be accessible with either hand, can be a VERY valuable tool. I give you permission to punch me all you want, maybee it will stop me, maybee it won't, but that criminal (6'2", 240lbs, who has been working out for the last 5 years in prison) will most likely be unimpressed.

That is a good point, as stress inoculations only work as long as the act still causes stress. If you don't care about the result, or are good enough to be truely confident, the stress is just not there.

0-3 yards, high stress: Lets go

I am in as well! Can I bring my sims gun? If you want me to reach out to Wojo just let me know.

I find the discussion of getting asses kicked interesting, as I find where most people are lacking in force on force is at contact range. Many are great shooters, as I am sure you both are, but lack any skills to deal with an opponent, armed or not, at contact ranges. It is surprising how many people get shot with their own gun in up close and personal force on force work. That being said, most real life violent encounters do not occur at 10 yards, but under 3.

I think this sounds like a great idea. Lets get a bunch of guys together and do some force on force, airsoft or sims, in the shoot house, and see what happens. I think a lot of guys would find this fun and intresting, and possibly educational!

I think your time frame may be a little off, as the military has been using red dots/OEGs as far back as vietnam, and Aimpoints were issued sights 10 years ago. As far as red dots on pistols, that is nothing new in combative circles either, despite Gabe Suarez saying he invented it. I first put a Docter Optic sight on one of my Glocks in 2004 to test it out,and while I have shot a few competitions for fun, I am definitely not focused on competition.

I will just add what I thought was an interesting phenomena from last weekends pistol classes. Several drills included a reactive target that took multiple (more than 3) shots in quick succession to go down. Several people with competitive backgrounds would double tap the target, see that it had not gone down, double tap the target, see that it had not gone down, etc. over and over. On the other hand, people with a "combative" background, for lack of a better term, just kept shooting the target until it went down whether it took 4 rounds or 10. Now this is training, not reality, but more that one person with a competitive background commented that they liked the drill, and it really opened their eyes to a training scar that they had developed. One of my pet peeves about competitors, that got me off on the wrong foot with someone who I would now consider a friend, is the habit many competitors have of clearing a gun, and then pointing it in some random, sometimes unsafe, direction and pulling the trigger. I have seen this at multiple pistol and carbine classes as well from people with competition backgrounds. If you feel that pulling the trigger is part of the clearing process, at least do it in a safe direction, and maybe even use it as an opportunity to do aimed dry fire. On the other hand I think competition is a great form of stress inoculation.

Good post Shane, I most definitely agree.

As I live indoors, I find a shorter carbine more appropriate for defense of my home. I also get a kick out of watching guys at carbine classes who can hardly lift their heavy barreled rifles by the end of the day

Sorry for the negativity, and thank you for setting the record straight in your post. Congratulations on being the first civilian school approved by Simunitions for civilian force on force training.

In the other thread, with the same title and body, which I guess you had deleted, Tosser informed you that your statement below is not true. He also posted videos from some of the other nationally known trainers that offer FOF classes using Sims. While GFH may be the only company authorized by Simunitions, it is most definitely not the only place in the world that offers Sims FOF classes to civilians. I took my first FOF class using Sims about 5 years ago in NJ, and have taken several more since then, with various trainers. I have also heard that your guys are saying that civilians cannot own Sims guns. This is also untrue. Sorry if I am coming off a little abrasive, but I get testy when threads I post in disappear. That being said, I love FOF training, and am always interested another class. Could you tell me who will be instructing, or provide a curriculum vitae of the instructor who will be teaching, the GFH South FOF classes?

Yes, thank you KpdPipes, I appreciate your response, and first hand information.

Only the shoes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHcajIRcBvA&feature=player_detailpage

jOn, I was really looking for KpdPipes opinion, but if you are bored enough to keep arguing I am going to remind you of the quote: KpfPipes said the guns were "turned over to NOPD" which does not fit with your theory that the NO"PD saw an unsecured/unsecurable residence. They walk inside and find guns and no residents. Knowing looters are in the area, they take the guns back to the PD for safekeeping." This leaves me with my initial question of " who turned the guns over to the NOPD, and what constitutes an "unsecured/unsecurable home". Were the police breaking into every home in the evacuation area? Would any evacuated home, even if the firearms are safely stored, such as in a safe, be considered unsecured in the evacuated area?" No, I was just bored and found KpdPipes statement interesting, and thought I would ask if he would clarify it. When you started arguing I could not resist replying to your creative hypotheticals. As it is rather late I am going to go to bed (on my tinfoil pillow), and rejoin this discussion tomorrow.

I hate to nitpick, but I spent too many years in school to ignore what is written. If you look at the quote: Therefore the guns could not have been turned in by their owners, as they were "in unsecured/unsecurable homes". If the owners had turned them in, they would have been removed by the owners when they left their homes, and never could have been "in unsecured/unsecurable homes". I don't mean to be a pain in the a**, but KpdPipes statement has piqued my curiosity. Secondly, does anyone think that residents of New Orleans, knowing the stellar reputation of their PD, would ever voluntarily turn their guns "over to NOPD for safekeeping"

How cheap is the RAP ammo, as I got several thousand Sims rounds for less than $0.25/round? At that rate it is not much more than live 9mm practice ammo, and I don't go through that much Sims ammo anyway. I really only use the Sims gun to work from 0 to 5 yards, as you can roll/grapple with it and it will hold up. For non contact scenarios, I find airsoft to be adequate, while being cheaper and less painful

Given that the above statement is correct, and I have no reason to doubt you, who turned the guns over to the NOPD, and what constitutes an "unsecured/unsecurable home". Were the police breaking into every home in the evacuation area? Would any evacuated home, even if the firearms are safely stored, such as in a safe, be considered unsecured in the evacuated area?