Dark Storm

Here is the exact language from NJSP... "Firearm must have an overall length of more then 26 inches with the pistol brace collapsed." Per the ATF determination letter, the guns are classified as "firearm non-NFA". If you log them in and out as anything else, you may be subject to violations during an ATF audit. A copy of the ATF determination letter is attached as addendum to the NJSP/NJAG letter. If you are referring to 26 USC 5845a, for the 26" length, that refers to the modification of a rifle of shotgun to have a length less than 26". It does not refer to a weapon that was not originally built as a rifle or shotgun which is the case for these guns, as well as the Mossberg shockwave and 500 cruiser pistol grip.

Yes, and it has been posted numerous times already. NJSP measures with the brace collapsed. ATF measures extended. Don't ask me why, it does not make sense. The new guns we are discussing are NOT "pistol grip firearms" , they are "non-NFA firearms". It is a different classification. Federal regulation limits this classification to a minimum length of 26". There is no federal law that limits the overall length of rifles of shotguns. Federal law separates whether rifles are shotguns are "short barrel" or not by barrel length, not by overall length.

The guns we are primarily discussing on this thread are NOT pistols, they are non-NFA firearms. As far as I know, the only AR pistols legal in NJ are our DSI fixed mag and (probably) the Franklin Armory bolt action (not semi-auto) one they make for California. Any AR pistol that is semi-auto with a detachable magazine would be an assault weapon in NJ because the magazine is not in the pistol grip (and it is likely over the 50 ounce weight limit).

The NJSP letter about the Dark Storm Industries and Troy Industries "firearm non-NFA" configurations is what is new. Our fixed mag pistols and rifles have always been legal in NJ. "Standard" AR and AK pistols are NOT legal. With the ejection port speed loaders we sell you can reload as fast as a mag change. Video demo is on a rifle, but the same process applies to the pistol.

We do manufacture fixed mag DS-15 pistols that are legal in New Jersey. The weight limit does not apply since the magazine is not detachable.

It is in emails between us as a manufacturer and the NJSP. "Firearm must have an overall length of more then 26 inches with the pistol brace collapsed."

To clarify... The NJSP letter includes a copy of the ATF determination letter on our DS-15 Typhoon firearm (non-NFA) which has the ATF language of measured with the stock extended. NJSP measures with the stock collapsed ATF measures with the stock extended It does not make sense that they measure differently, but they do. Hope this helps.

Ok, got that fixed. Was a duplicate copy not a reference of one of the pages. Our rifles range from $995 to 1995 depending on model, caliber, color and configuration.

I just checked and it is correct on the backend. Not sure why it is still showing up incorrectly. Have to dig into the website code tomorrow. Sorry about that.

Currently sold out. Parts are in process for next two batches. I would say next batch should ship in 4-6 weeks but most of those are already sold to dealers in CT. Batch after that is probably at 8 weeks from now and is available.

We do sell most of the component for our rifles separately but it is not necessarily cheaper. Also keep in mind the cost of special tools, lubricants, adhesives, anti-sieze etc. it is generally cheaper and you end up with a better product when you buy a complete assembled firearm as compared to identical parts.

Here is a link to the NJSP letter regarding the DS-15 Typhoon Firearm non-NFA. https://www.dark-storm.com/images/DSI-NJSP-Firearm-Letter.pdf

Yes, we may all be misinterpreting their statement. I did reach out to them for clarification, I am not sure if they will respond or advise dealers or do nothing.

Our question over it was based on NJSP email which contained the following statement... "Firearm must be manufactured and sold as a complete Firearm in New Jersey (similar to the Mossberg 590 Shockwave)." Maybe Modern Materiel can comment if they are referring to the same?

I think you may be referring to the 49 rifle exemption for FET. You need an FFL 07 to manufacturer even 1 rifle. It also needs to be engraved with your FFL information. That said, if the receiver is NICS'ed to the individual and then received back in for gunsmithing to be assembled with the other parts that is gunsmithing not manufacturing. It seems like minutia, but the difference is all about what it is on the books as and when it is NICS'ed. if you have a letter to the contrary, I would love to see it. No worries. We are going to sell plenty and we totally understand the frustration with taking parts off a brand new gun to change them out.

Back on the Federal side... There are a few types of FFL (Federal Firearms Licenses), the most common of which is a "01 - Dealer". A dealer cannot assemble a gun for you and then NICS it to you. They can assemble it after the receiver is NICSed to you but from what I am reading above that does not solve the problem. Another type is "07 - Manufacturer". This is what we are, Modern Materiel as well. 07's can assemble parts into a new classification BUT they can only do that on their receivers, they (we) can't for example build a complete gun on an Anderson lower and then transfer it to you as a rifle instead of a receiver. There are some ways around this, but they are complicated and effectively expensive involving marking (engraving) and taxes. Those are Federal laws.

A couple points of information. But first, please don't read any of this as us offering legal advise nor encouraging or discouraging someone to buy a completed firearm or build your own. Obviously anything any of us do in this realm is at our own peril. 1. 4473's forms only have 3 classifications for guns... handgun, long gun and other. The later requires detailing what it is (i.e. receiver, etc.). This matches up with the NICS (Federal background check system) where there are only 3 options as well. Keep in mind while the form is ATF, the NICS is run by the FBI and they only keep records based on the 3 classifications. This is a frustration when the industry has tried to litigate "assault weapon bans" because we don't have a accurate break down on semi-auto's vs bolt action vs shotgun, etc. 2. FFL (gun dealers and manufacturers) have to keep log books. These have to have more information and the "type" entry need to be exact to what the item is. Rifle, Shotgun, Pistol, Derringer, Revolver, Firearm non-NFA, AOW (any other weapon). etc. only a manufacturer. "Other" is not a valid entry on here. If a lower is transferred as a "receiver" is there somewhere in NJ where it is documented as something other than that for NJ purposes? That seems to be where the confusion lies. In Connecticut, for example, there is a prohibition on the transfer of a new stripped lower so firearm non-NFA's much be sold as a complete manufactured item there. Federal law would allow you to build a receiver into a pistol, rifle, etc. that is why you must be 21 to purchase a receiver, because it could be built into a pistol. If NJ chooses to implement their own restriction on individuals assembling a firearm non-NFA it would be up to an individual in NJ who wishes to do so to litigate it. We as a manufacturer can't do it because we would not have "standing". In legalese we can't sue over it because it does not impact us as we can assemble them. A local dealer might be able to based on their losing sales of lowers and parts, but that would be up to them to prove that burden. The other option would be to lobby the Government to change that restriction, but based on the current political climate, that would be a challenge. That is assuming the restriction on building your own actually exists.

Theoretically both, each independently. I can't speak for what NJSP would do with a 25.9" gun. Each state has it's own laws and regulations. Connecticut for example treats anything with up to a 12.0" barrel as a pistol (that is codified in the law) and that is why most firearm non-NFAs have a 12.5" barrel. Not that I am aware of.

Per ATF, a stripped or assembled lower is logged in and out as a "receiver". If it is a complete rifle than it is a "rifle". In order to be a "firearm non-NFA" which is the legal term used by the ATF, it must arrive to the FFL manufactured in that format. There is nothing special engraved on ours, it is the manufactured configuration and the transfer paperwork which classify what it is. Hope that helps.

Since the ATF measures extended, the situation could exist where the firearm is greater than 26" by ATF measurement, but shorter by NJSP measurement.

Hi everyone, we have created a user on the forum here if anyone has any questions regarding our firearms, the NJSP letter, etc. Feel free to post or PM us.

Per our communication with NJSP... "Firearm must have an overall length of more then 26 inches with the pistol brace collapsed." so that would imply it is measured from the tip of the barrel threads to the brace in the collapsed position.