EngineerJet

Excuse me sir... Point me to the law that says it can't be built. Your opinion means jack

It says "necessary to prevent an individual from manufacturing or posessing an unlawful firearm". Well it's not considered manufacturing and since the end configuration is legal...

In short. No. Because it'll prevent an individual from making or possessing an unlawful firearm. I dunno how this holds up legally without a law. The same argument can be made with building all ar15s. Since we we have to pin stocks and pin brakes. Wonder what a lawyer has to say about this?

My best guess. They cant just get the records without a warrant. Which would mean they would have to go to a judge and explain that they want a warrant to get the names of people who purchased a legal firearm. And now that the law was changed after the fact, they want to go round them up. By that same logic, they could have done the same with the magazine ban. But they didnt.

I believe theyd need the FFL's records which requires a warrant

Gonna throw in my recommendation of a glock 34. since itll be for home defense, size shouldnt matter. and you can fit it for an rmr for competition down the line.

The thread has probably evolved since your first post, and many members have given very good helpful feedback in terms of reliability and improving proficiency. I noticed you mentioned modding. Were you looking for an all around handgun that is good for homedefense and competition?

Was speaking to an FFL that said the same. When the police stop by they are generally very pro-gun and can't stand the anti-gun lawmakers. Their hands are just tied cuz its their job.

I guess therein lies the question of, what list of descriptions made this firearm good to go? To me it looks like the fact that it had a brace put it into a configuration that didnt fit into a prohibited category. So on paper, it looks like flash hiders and threaded barrels etc would be allowed on an SBF. With respect to the OAL, I'm not everyone to go out and build 22 inch SBF. But its fair to ask what are our limits. Will any brace do? Different brands of vertical grips? Is barrel length relevant as long as 26 is met? etc. We know on the federal level, 26 is the minimum for rifles and pistols with a vertical grip. I've looked over N.J.S.2C:39 and it appears at the state level there is no OAL minimum requirement for pistols and rifles and only shotguns. So its possible the manufacturers kept the 26 minimum to cover their bases just in case ATF classifies it as a pistol? Has ATF chimed in so far to what these SBF are classified as?

Agreed. But this all hinders first on the basic classification pistol before these additional conditions have to be met. For this thread I assume we are refering to these SBF and similar firearms. Since these firearms dont fit into the traditional pistol or rifle or shotgun, these features don't apply to them, right?

No issues, Just looking at the laws. The below 26 for pistols as long as you dont add a vertical grip is federal, yes. NJ law makes no mention of minimum length except for shotguns. These weapons are not classified as a rifle, pistol or shotgun according to NJ and thus cannot be classified as assault firearms. Why am I the one with the issue for stating what I've read and opening the floor corrections? I did not dispute the conditions for why you cant be below 26". I just added the addendum that you can be under 26 if no vertical grip (should have clarified federally). But since at the state level they dont qualify as pistol or rifle. At the state level there is no minimum requirements for these firearms. We're all here to learn. No need for hostility.

You can be below 26 for pistols as long as you dont add a vertical grip. If you have more up to date information then I'm all for it.

As I said, Im not gonna go build whatever I want. This is just discussion on what is and is not allowed based on the wording of NJ and Federal laws. If there is someone who has contradictory information that is legit, its 100% welcome. I'm still learning more as I go and I just realized the 26 minimum OAL is probably being met by the SBF and similar firearms because its designed to be fired by two hands. I noticed the Troy and DS firearms both have vertical foregrips. I'm wondering if they didnt wanna play with the verbage of angled foregrip/grip stop vs vertical grip?

Yes, but the requirements are are on rifles and pistols. Since ATF already stated adding a brace to a pistol does not make it a rifle. It seems like that minimum length does not apply. I could be wrong but thats how I read it so far. As for minimum length on a pistol i found this. An AR-15 pistol with an overall length of 26" or longer may have a vertical foregrip installed, as long as no buttstock is installed in conjunction with a shorter than 16" barrel. This means AR pistol under 26 inches cannot have a vertical grip. Maybe its possible NJ doesnt consider it a pistol, but the ATF still might?

AR pistols are under 26 and dont require tax stamp.

Obligatory not a lawyer disclaimer. (But I can read, and will quote/paraphrase) Based on the letter from the office of the attorney general. Here are the key take aways for understanding these "firearms" The law defines: rifle - "...any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder..." handgun - "...any pistol, revolver or other firearm originally designed or manufactured to be fired by the use of a single hand." shotgun - i dont put the definition here since its not really relevant. Now, the assault firearm is a list of banned firearms or any RIFLE + atleast 2 evil features, HANDGUN + atleast 2 evil features, or SHOTGUN + 2 evil features. Here is where the SBF comes into play. They are designed to be fired by two hands (thus pistol brace), BUT are not designed to be shouldered. Since it is not classified as a rifle or handgun, by default they CANNOT be considered assault firearms. Based on that, it seems that as long as we build our own SBF build with a pistol brace, none of the evil features should apply. Meaning bayonet lugs, and flash hiders would technically be ok. (not that its that important anyway). Here is the area that I am not 100% on, but logically makes sense. I scanned through the NJ firearms laws and there is no mention of minimum overall length except for shotguns. In addition, federal law states an SBR is "a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length". Since the ATF has stated that the pistol brace is not designed to be shouldered and thus does not convert a pistol into an SBR. To me, this means there is no minimum overall length requirement at the state or federal level for these SBF's. As well as any of the banned features such as threaded barrels (no need to pin/weld muzzle device). Now I am NOT saying go out and build your own with all these features since I'm no lawyer. What I am saying is, this is what the law reads like to me.

So if someone wanted to build one themselves. All they need to do is make sure of overall length, the brace, and pin/weld brake if the barrel by itself brings OAL under 26"?

I agree that any company should be able to reap the benefits of their hard work and they don't owe it to anyone to divulge their secrets. Having said that, in this instance the "secrets" are of a legal nature and we shouldn't just accept that a gun is legal but we can't tell you why. Sure the specs are out there now, but given the nature of NJ laws, it's reasonable for the citizens to question if replicating the specs are sufficient to maintain legality and what deviation if any are allowed. As citizens who wish to stay within the law it's only fair to ask.

Since it's not a rifle and barrel length won't really matter, is pinning and welding necessary?

is there a weight requirement for this design? so if i wanted to use a different handguard or muzzle brake could it fall outside of the specs?

(i know nothing here is legal advice) So i can essentially, can someone with a stripped lower, just look up the specs and parts for this SBF, and build one themselves (11.5 barrel, overall length 26.1" brace, etc) and be legal?

Im late the the party. I recently saw the modern materiel SBF and I'm wondering if i can build the same as well. One question I have is that when you buy a stripped lower, its considered a rifle. So if you already have a stripped lower, can you build your own copy of the SBF and have it be legal? considering the SBF is an "other firearm" and not a rifle.

Let me get this straight, gun issues require federal intervention because states cannot handle it but illegal immigration which is the feds actual jurisdiction, we need to create a sanctuary to shield law breakers from the same feds who need to solve our gun problems?

George RR Martins has said that the books will have a similar ending, but I suspect he will fill in a lot more holes along the way so that the ending actually makes sense. D&D were told what the ending was supposed to be but it seems they fast tracked towards that ending. GRRM has said that there was enough source material to continue for beyond 4 seasons. After gathering my thoughts, my issue is D&D botched it all by trying to rush it. They say its not about the destination, its the journey. And they fucked the journey up.

I agree we all watched the same show, but there were different arcs for different people. That's why it was a big selling point of who gets the throne. It had people invested in different characters.