Vlad G

Slight misconception here, I don't own any guns specifically build for games. Sure some people do, but quite a few people shoot plain jane glocks, or 1911, or whatever.

It boils down to the burning bush issue. I have a problem with taking statements like that on faith. Call me an unbeliever if you want. I don't for a second doubt that the very good teachers out there are indeed very good and the best that have ever been, this is not an issue of debate. But so were the ones before them, and the ones before them. I still see shooters who the military has taught to raise their handgun to the sky and lower it on target, though no one teaches that today. 10 years ago everyone was saying red dots used in competition have no purpose on real life guns. Today I read about top trainers like Vickers and others experimenting with RMR dots on their M&Ps. What was held an absolute in years past it is no longer so absolute. Now, I'm perfectly willing to accept actual proof and examples, and I don't claim to know everything, and I'm willing to learn. So if someone shows me a case where USPSA has gotten someone killed, then I'll learn from it. Until then, it is dogma not fact. Mind you, dogma serves a purpose, but it should be always questioned and reexamined.

Tosser, I'll take you up on that offer. Tell me when and where I can join you and pending schedules and life priorities, I'll join you. PM with the information please. I take every opportunity to learn something new, and I'm not claiming to be an expert, so if you are offering to teach, I'll show up willing learn. However I'm not asking for an example because I'm being willfully obtuse. Right now you are asking me to believe that USPSA get people killed because other people have stated so even though no one has ever shown me proof of it. I'm sorry but that is to much like religion for me. Please REREAD what I typed, I don't claim that USPSA "tactics" are suitable for self defense, in fact I fully agree with you that how we move through a stage is idiotic if it was a life and death scenario. The problem I have is that there is a huge gap between "USPSA is not self defense training" and "USPSA will get you killed". It is like saying race car drivers can't drive a car on the road without running into a tree.

Oh I ABSOLUTELY believe it is a concern which I why I tell people "This is a game, don't be an idiot and charge 12 baddies with a handgun through a door". The problem I have is that I've repeatedly heard "Gun games will get you killed" but so far no one has shown me actual example. The statement, in the way I often hear it, implies that gun games are harmful, instead of "not training". So far no one has shown me an example where gun games, by themselves and in the absence of other context, have gotten any one killed. I'll offer you another perspective. The average civilian shooter mostly shoots at bullseyes from behind a bench. The average civilian shooter does not go and train at EAG, Magpul, Vickers or Viking Tactical, etc. The first time we shoot them in competition they have never holstered a hot gun, have no familiarity with safe fire arm handling, reloading their gun when they still have a round the chamber, etc. The single most common thing I see new shooters do is drop a magazine, insert a fresh one and rack out a live round out of the chamber, over and over gain, because every time they've loaded a gun on the firing line they started with an empty gun. I see new shooters who don't know how to operate the safety on their guns, don't know how not point it at their own feet or hands. I've seen shooters run around with a handgun gun pointing up in the air in a stance we call "The Full Sabrina" (think Charlies Angels). I've also seen police officers "unload" their shotguns by shooting the ground with a load of buckshot 12 inches from my foot and freeze not knowing what the hell they did. I fully understand bad habits, and muscle memory, because I see it every weekend. Given that most of these folks will never attend a formal "tactical" training school (and if they all tried, they couldn't because there aren't enough such schools), do you honestly believe that they will be better served by being scared by lines such as "Gun games will get you killed on the street" instead of actually learning how to operate their firearms, do so safely, be able to accurately and quickly hit what they aim at, etc? From where I'm standing, I much rather they stop reading AR15 or Glocktalk where experts (some real, some not) tell them to avoid games unless they want to die when SHTF, and get their a** to a gun game and learn to actually use the firearms they own instead of polishing them to a fine shine in they comfort of their own basement while maintaining an illusion of safety. I rather they learn SOME bad tactical habits then maintain their all around bad firearm handling habits. This is isn't and altogether altruistic wish, I admit. Some of them might be neighbors and I rather not get shot through a wall because they woke up scared when the cat knocked over a vase. I have never claimed and I will never claimed that gun games are a substitute for formal training, if you believe you need it. I am also rather dubious of the statement that "Gun games will get you killed". As I've mentioned elsewhere MOST of the time I've heard that line from people who participated in ONE match, got their a** handed to them, and decided to never come back. Sadly, a lot of those folks for police officers who came in full of swagger and couldn't hit a target. Before you jump down my throat, there are a good number of excellent competitive shooters who are police, military, etc so I'm not trying to paint such folks with a bad brush. Some were good on day one, some where 20 years veterans and SWAT team trainers who have flat out told me "I thought I knew how to shoot, until I've started shooting in competition" So to sum up, competition shooting is NOT a substitute for tactical training, but so far no one has shown me an exampled where it got peopled killed. So I ask again, do you have one?

Interesting. I think some a few people on this forum have gone through my "welcome to action shooting, don't get shot" speech I give to new shooters. One of things I mention almost every time is "This is not training, this will not make you an elite operator, seek professional training if that is what you are after". After that I mention "What this will however teach you is safe weapon manipulation, fast and accurate shooting, and knowing what you can and can not do" Interesting that the second part of JJ's line is "However, if you focus on the fundamentals--weapons handling, weapons manipulation and marksmanship--you are in a much higher echelon" almost identical to what I tell people. But that's not really what I asked, do you have an example of "gun games will get you killed"?

Yup, I've read it very carefully. Do you have an example of someone who used idiotic tactics and got killed because thats what they did in USPSA or whatever other gun game, not a video game? BTW for every study that says violent video games create killers, there is one that says they don't. Given the widespread use of video games you'd think you would see a lot more mass murders, and you would be hard pressed to find someone who was teenage mass murder that would have not come in contact with video games even accidentally.

I'll bite. DO you have an example where someone got killed because of their gun game mindset?

I see, so wanting to know where someone's advice is coming from is somehow wrong. Asking what someone's experience is so I can understand their point of view and weight the validity of their opinion for my circumstances makes me the poser police. All my life I thought that using critical thinking skills made me a rational human being, thanx for setting me straight. Funny you should say that. Most people I've heard say that generally showed up at one match, couldn't hit what they aimed at, and never came back using that line as justification. However, given your credentials I'm pretty sure you can hit what you aim at so I have to assume there is another reason you say it. Could you please provide me with some examples where competitive shooting has lead to someone getting killed in real life, I'm sure we could all learn from it?

I don't think I called anyone anything, sorry if that was an impression I gave to anyone.

I am a middle aged computer programer who enjoys competitive shooting. Note that I didn't call you a poser, though I reserve the right to call posers posers. Sorry, I don't think I need special qualifications to call out someone who pretends to be anything they are not.

If you really want to see pictures got check out the photo galleries from the big steel matches. Here is one: http://www.worldclasssteel.com/gallery/SpeedonSteel2009 and another: http://www.worldclasssteel.com/gallery/2009EastCoastPro-Am The pictures were not taken with range publicity in mind but you'll get some idea. Google Maps from above as well.

Very good, and before we go on, let me thank you for your service. I asked because there are lots of posers out there that sound just like you, with nothing to back it up, so when someone expresses a strongly worded opinion I want to know where it is coming from. That said, the barrels I've seen PMC ammo chrono'd in have been JPs, and BCMs, not exactly crap barrels. I spend quite a bit of time chrono'ing loads in handguns and rifles and I've verified that my chrono is correct by comparing my results with those major match chronos with light boxes and 3 different chrono's in a row, calculating averages, for the same ammo. My chrono is normally placed 20ft or more from the muzzle, as I've found that any closer you are measuring the speed of gases escaping around the bullet, not the bullet itself.

So let me ask you, how did you tuned this mindset of yours? Besides reading AR15 or m4carbine.net I mean.

I'm asking about a single chrono because I'm doubting that chrono was accurate. I encourage you to re-chrono those loads through you gun through a different chrono because those numbers do not match any other have seen in my personal experience. For example I have chrono'ed PMC 55gr in multiple 16" rifles around 2750 FPS. How far from the muzzle was the chrono, in my experience if you place it too close you end up measuring the speed of the gases not of the bullet. Yes, thats me, a forum troll, you figured me out.

Shane, I sent you a PM, we can hash this out without polluting every thread.

Was that data collected over a single chrono? because it seem VERY fast for each barrel. I've seen PMC not pull that velocity for a full 20" barrel nevermind a 14.5" and all the rest of data seem quite fast. Also Shane, you continue to make assumptions that frankly are beginning to make you look a bit arrogant. You again state things like Slav is a gamer and that somehow you are shooter more serious then him and that his gun is a gamer gun with no practical use. Having handled his gun, I assure you that you are wrong.

I for one welcome the insanity that Mossberg has been bringing to market, even down to the chainsaw shotgun. I think they figured out that its cheap enough to produce wacky ****, someone will buy it if priced right, and creates buzz. So I say go for it Mossberg, make a .22 with a tank brake, make 930 with a stock made of hard cheese or a lever gun with a folding bayonet, or even a hold plated 500 with a gold fish tank in the stock.

The other issue to consider is availability of ammunition. For example there is an argument to be made that certain 20ga sabot slugs have the same performance as the same slugs in 12ga, but because of popularity there are a lot more available options in ammunition in 12ga then 20ga. Then there is the issue of recoil. Even if you have identical performing loads, the 20ga may have more perceived recoil because most often 20ga shotguns are lighter. But your original questions, the "power" is from the shells, not the gun.

Its 590. There is no break it. Shoot it with whatever you want.

So you really think that 1.5" makes a huge difference in weight and length? If you were shooting from vehicles a lot I'd understand but you can shed a lot more weight with a lighter handguard. By all means, buy whatever the heck you want but your giving up some velocity, which you are already short of when you use a carbine. I'm not saying that they aren't cute and that I can't see why one may want it, but is that really the right FIRST AR for someone? There are soo many places to save weight that giving up form the most important component seems odd to me.

Recently I wrote a post here about What I think should go into an AR. That post has an eye towards building it yourself but the principles remain for buying one off the shelf. If you are going to buy on off the shelf, I found that Bushmaster is hit and miss (and might be better now that they are under new management) and DPMS is ok for their higher end models but not their lower end ones. All ARs are NOT equal, there is a large variation in parts. If you want to split the difference between building it yourself and buying one off the shelf I would do it as follows: Buy an assembled lower from JP Rifles, they sell their lower WITH their trigger installed for $350. You can get them to install your stock of choice probably and pistol grip and such. I doubt the whole thing will run you more then $600. You will be hard pressed to find a better lower and trigger combination "off the shelf" unless you are willing to buy after market triggers and install them yourself. JP's trigger is fairly famous. Go to Bravo company and order whichever upper floats your boat. They come in many configurations from $650 to .. well infinity I guess, but in that price you get a milspec bolt group, a great barrel and a free floated hand guard. That puts you at $1250 which puts you in your price range with an excellent configuration that will match exactly what you want in a rifle, not what a dealer has on the shelf.

The outdoor range is always locked unless there is a match, otherwise anyone could wonder through and use it without a membership or get hurt by being a special kind of random stupid. Check out the calendar of events and go visit the outdoor range during one of the scheduled events, the gate should be open.

Once you are a full member (possibly earlier) your wife can come with you whenever she wants for no additional cost. She only needs a membership if she wants to go by herself. .357Mag is no-go indoors, fine outdoors. You can always use .38s in it indoors, no one cares what the side of the guns says, they care what you put in it. .357 is a much faster round and to things like metal backstops "fast" does a lot more damage then "total energy"

I'd like to actually see one myself, the folks that have them seem to like them: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119710&hl=pst&st=0 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=120336&st=0&p=1413762&hl=pst&fromsearch=1entry1413762

The man linked a Nikon and a Leupold. These are not scopes that fail under normal or even serious use. No, you can't hammer nails with them like the Nightforce salesman likes to do, but who does that? WHEN he knows what his taste in reticules is he can buy the exact scope he wants and move the other one on a .22, a secondary wife/gf gun, or even sell them because they hold their value reasonably well, he wasn't linking Barska's or Tasco's. On the there hand if he buys an expensive scope now, with a reticule I like or one you like, he ends up having less money to spend on ammo, doesn't shoot as much, and at the end when he knows what he really wants it may not be what he already spend lots of money on.