High Exposure

That's fine bro. For my purposes everything on there is there for a reason. Be specific an we can chat it out. This is for discussion and learning right? What would you change and why?

Excellent! Best of luck with it.

Ground squirrels and marmots whistle

Hey Shane, sorry I missed this. My forum settings were jacked and I wasn't getting notifications. You are 100% correct, before you engage a target in the real world 2 things have to happen, you have to acquire a target, then identify it. The ACOG and other magnifying optics help tremendously with that. That being said, the OP was talking about target shooting out to 100 yards (occasionally longer), so no real need for magnification for ID other than to make sure you aren't hitting your neighbors target, and SHTF, which may have an ID component prior to engagement. I say "may" because you are going to have a hard time justifying shooting someone at distances where you need 3-4x magnification to realize it is a threat, as self defense. Not saying it is an impossible situation, but merely improbable. Now, getting into a close engagement while trying to di-di the area of unrest during the SHTF is much more likely to happen, IMO. A RDO and a pair of good binoculars would be a better investment and a more versatile equipment choice for SHTF, again, in my opinion. That being said, I have an ACOG, a RDO, and binoculars and yes I am bringing all of them if it ever comes to that.

Try moving the grip toward the muzzle end of the forearm. The further your hands are from the weapons center of balance, the more control you will have. You will see a definite increase in speed and control when driving the muzzle. Your split times on multiple target engagement drills will decrease significantly, and you will see an improvement in your speed and accuracy when shooting on the move as well. The downside is it is more fatiguing having your support arm out there near the muzzle. Also, you can try using the vert grip for a reference point or hand-stop vice the broom handle grip. Like the photo in Post #4 in this thread.

Ok. The CTD comment may have been a tad out of line, but I stand by my other statements. (Just FYI the CTD comment was less about looks and more about sub standard equipment that will not stand up to hard prolonged use) There are a lot of threads on here about how being PC is the death of America, and how people are coddling others feelings to the detriment of society as a whole. Well, I was just calling it as I saw it. This was the second thread I read with him showing his a** (the other was in the "Bushmaster legality" thread where he asked a question he already knew the answer to, and then got pissy when he was called on it by the membership). Now, I don't post much but I do lurk, and when I do post, I try to stay in my lane. When I read Bhunted's posts I had to respond. We have a responsibility to make sure bad info does not get propagated. A duty to make sure that the good guys get the good news, sometimes even in spite of themselves. In keeping within the spirit of the thread, my shotgun: Rem 870 with ported Vang Comp barrel Wilson +2 Surefire Rail with TLR-1 and TD "Irish" Stubby very grip Vang Comp mag follower and big head safety Mesa Tactical Sidesaddle with rail and Insight MRDS optic in ADM mount Mesa Tactical LEO Stock Adapter MIAD grip MOE stock with tall cheek riser Specter Gear single point sling

[zoolander] Listen to your friend Ray Ray bhunted, he's a cool guy! [/zoolander] Looks like a "Cheaper than Dirt" catalog threw up on that Mossberg. A few quick points: 1) Less than lethal is a no go in NJ. If it comes out of a firearm, it is deadly force. Period. Plus, why would you want go and make the armed intruder in your home angry? I have seen people take multiple LL rounds center mass (Batons, socks, rubber bullets) and continue their aggressive actions. So, just don't do it. Please? For the children... 2)Why for the love of Baby Jesus would you purposefully choose a handgun over any long gun in a self defense situation? Nothing you can hold in 2 hands is guaranteed to stop a determined assailant, and pistol calibers are notoriously bad at ending fights. Do you know what most people shot with a pistol die from? Old Age. We use handguns because you can't always walk around with a long gun strapped to your chest (People give you funny looks), not because they work so well. They are convenient and portable, but are far from the best tools for the job of self defense. 3) If you are trusting the sound of racking a shotgun to make your home intruder, or any bad guy for that matter, shit their pants and run for the hills, you are on drugs. Put the crack pipe down. Not everyone is as scared of a shotgun racking as you are. Some people out there are genuine bad dudes and have had guns pointed at them before. That racking sound, yup, it just gave your position away. 4) You want to post a picture of your shotty with a pistol grip, adjustable stock, and a rail with a vert grip and laser, then do it. But don't get all upset when no one ooohs and ahs all over it or tells you it's the cat's pajamas. 5)Yes Virginia, you can actually miss with a scattergun. A shotgun is not a "Fire and Forget" weapon. Like all firearms it must be aimed and the trigger must be properly manipulated if you want to get good hits on target. 6) Dude, stop taking everything so personally. There is some good knowledge here. Just because you may be older than me or Ray or vjf915 (sorry I don't know your name bro, I have met Ray but not you) doesn't mean diddly-squat. Everyone is a victim of their own frame of reference. Yours may be different than mine, and mine may be more relevant or current than yours. You say you are here to "relax and learn" but when someone tries to teach you something you get all butt-hurt and complain you are being picked on. Leave your ego at the door when you log on.

Yup, that was me. Nice meeting you and your boy.

Heavyopp, Did you and your son stop to watch JJ shoot a round, then check out an MP5 at a safe table?

I have an ACOG (TA01NSN) and 2 Aimpoints (Both T-1s). I shoot regularly out to 200 yards and 90% of the time I reach into the safe, it is to grab a rifle with an Aimpoint. Spend $400 on an Aimpoint PRO. Then take the other $600 you save and spend it on ammo and training. If the RDS is zerod properly (50/200 yard zero), you will make your shots out to 250 yards, sans magnifier, with boring regularity. Inside 100 yards the ACOG doesn't even come close to the speed and accuracy of an RDS. I also have an EoTurd. It is mounted on my S&W M&P 15-22, while I save for another Aimpoint. That's a clue. Also, if you are concerned about batteries, keep in mind that the battery life on the PRO and T-1, if left on at brightness setting 8 of 12, is around 50,000 hours. The EoTurd is around 180 hours. Do the math.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

Regarding the handle, ditch it and use the flat top. If the optic is ever going to be used on a social rifle, please buy quality gear and consider the best value vs. lowest cost relationship heavily before dropping your money. Buy once, cry once. As far as LEO Agencies, almost all of them are like that. You will need a very progressive Administration and a Firearm's cadre that is switched on and a Boro/Twp/City that is willing to spend the cash. A perfect storm of tactical and strategic forethought with no "can"t happen here syndrome" that is so prevalent in Law Enforcement these days. The firearm itself will usually be issued, but rarely are any accessories included. Any add-ons then need to be approved by the agency/armorer in accordance with department policies. Some agencies will issue only a sidearm and allow you to purchase a long gun and approve it for use, my agency issues a sidearm, has shared shotguns assigned to cars, with partners sharing rifles. The team I am assigned to issues stock rifles and accessories need to be approved then purchased on my dime. Keep in mind, this also goes for training. Every class other than the state firearm's instructor certification courses have been on my dime and my time. Good equipment plays a role here as well. Sucks to attend an expensive training class and not get your money out of the instruction because you are fighting equipment issues such as a crappy optic after shooting 1500 round in the rain over 3 days.

When you find this agency, let me know. I want to transfer. Everything except my armor, helmet, and a stock Colt M4 I had to purchase on my own dime. That includes slings, lights, rails, optics, pouches, holsters, goggles, and uniforms. If you expect your agency to provide the quality gear that you want, you will be poorly equipped, and very disappointed. Wait, you want to co-witness an RDS with your carry handle BUIS? Why not take the money you will have to put out for a carry handle mount and buy a Troy or Magpul BUIS and ditch the carry handle? There are so many negatives to this method of mounting optics that, personally, it doesn't even rate a last resort option. If you don't have a flat top upper, you would be better off buying a new upper receiver.

Not true. Your ambient light conditions can change in an instant. For example, moving from outside on a sunny day to inside a dim house or basement, being backlit/silhouetted, or standing in shadows observing a well lit space. Also, if you are doing CQB type work in low light without the benefit of IR/NODs, (such as defending your family in a home invasion type robbery) you have to take how bright your white light is into consideration when adjusting your RDS brightness. Sucks to have your RDS set to what you think is a proper brightness, then hit your white light to ID your threat/target and realize your dot is washed out by your light. Turning it down to the lowest visible setting does make the dot appear smaller and can increase accuracy, but, barring certain situations, it should be a range only practice, not a solid across the board TTP. On the flip side, you can't have the dot so bright it blooms to the point you can't see past it either. Like all things, the situation will dictate.

Truthfully, if I could go back, I would never have bought it. I have since traded it for the RMR02 that is mounted on a milled Glock 35 slide. I ran the T1/magnifier combo pretty hard through multiple 2 and 3 day training classes and found that it just was not for me. I was faster and more accurate 100 yards and in without the magnifier, using just a 4 moa T1, AND, I was accurate and fast enough with the ACOG inside of 100 yds(excluding CQB distances) to not be bothered with a hybrid, best of both worlds, solution. What I learned from this is that a dedicated RDS, such as an Aimpoint T1 AND a dedicated magnified optic, like my TA01 NSN ACOG, in quality mounts that retain zero (like products from LaRue) that are zeroed for the same rifle, work better for my application. My solution has been to keep the T1 on my rifle and the ACOG in my rifle bag. I have yet to find I needed the ACOG over the T1. Again that is for me and my use. If I had a different job to do or training requirement, that may be different. I am not saying that the Aimpoint Mag in the LaRue FTS mount is crappy gear, it absolutely is not. Great glass, quality manufacturing, excellent kit all in all, it just does not work for me in my application.

I have a TA01NSN ACOG, 2 Aimpoint T1 (4moa), an Aimpoint 3x magnifier, an EoTech, a Trijicon RMR, and an Insight MRDS. I have no affiliation with any company, but I am a big fan of good gear that works as advertised. I shoot A LOT, both in training and competition and carry a gun for a living. When considering going "budget" with optics consider best value vs lowest price. An Aimpoint PRO or T1/H1/R1 with a 4moa dot and a 5 year constant on battery life at $450 will serve you better and be cheaper than a $100 Strikefire/Sig/Burris/Primary Arms etc... when you consider batteries, repairs and replacement costs over 5 years. Not to mention you will be saving yourself a lot of aggravation from wandering zeros, intermittent power issues, bad glass, loose mounts, condensation in the tube, dot washout in bright sunlight, or varying dot size. I have personally seen all these issues with "budget optics". As far as dot size, don't sweat a dot size between 1-4moa. Most rack grade military/consumer rifles are purposfully spec'd to be accurate to 4 moa (that translates to a 4 inch group at 100 yards). Unless you are shooting match ammo, you have anywhere between 4-10 moa (inherent accuracy of a 4"-10" spread at 100 yards) capable ammo, if not more, and I don't know many people that are 1mo shooters on demand. (Keep in mind that "on demand" is different than "on command") My advice, and it is worth what you paid for it, is to be patient, shoot with irons for the next 6 months, and save up for a quality optic. I bet you will be much happier for it. Also, keep your eyes upen for sales, there will be lots of new and used 4moa Aimpoint T1s for sale as the new 2moa T1s hit the market. (I for one will keep both of my 4moa T1s, as they work fine for my application) Finally, weight considerations aside, I consider the Aimpoint Pro an excellent value considering battery life, warranty, manufacturers reputation, service record, personal experience, and included mount and covers. Any RDS type sights I buy in the future for long guns, will be either an Aimpoint PRO or T1/H1/R1 in a LaRue mount. Caveat Emptor: If this optic is going on a range gun only and is not to be used for serious training, self defense, home defense, or work, and this optic will be shot little, say 50 rounds a month in sunny warm weather only, where cottonball clouds float across an impossibly blue sky next to a river of chocolate and trees that give beer, then you can probably get by with a cheaper budget optic. Probably.

Congrats on the Aimpopint PRO. That is the choice I would have made as well. Now get out there and put some rounds downrange so you can report back how it works for you. I am eager to hear.

This is the first I have heard of Aimtech,, some people call that a clue..... I know Mesa Tactical makes one with an integrated 4, 6, or 8 round side saddle for a bit more cash. If you are planning to run AR sights on it, Troy makes a set of Lower BUIS for use on an HK 416 that would work better that a standard set. Cheek weld will still be a ****, and proper sight pictue/sight alignment will still be mediocre at best. Whatever you do, just realize, like Ray said, it is still a shotgun, not an AR. You are better off saving that $100 and putting it towards a quality AR that trying to dress up your shotgun and being disappointed.

Awesome! I got one too for Pistol Iron. Nice little surprise that helps cover the cost of the next match! On another note, anyone going to the Indoor Frangible Speed on Steel match next month? It is a little slow moving, but the stages are a lot of fun and there are plenty of like minded folks to BS with while you are waiting.

I was all set to go, but I am out. Too much going on. Have fun everyone and shoot straight!

That was fun. Next time I will bring my 870. And, I may have a new 9mm "carbine" for the next comp.

Welcome from another Sayreville guy. I am over in the Main Street Townhomes development.

I came in 4th place in Speed on Steel?!? Shooting full power .40 loads from a stock Glock 35 out of a level 3 retention holster, I will take it! I thought I shot like crap... Guess it wasn't as bad as I thought. Now comes the interior dialogue over Winning vs. Training. I could probably shave 2 - 3 seconds per stage going to a speed holster. Figure another second or two shooting under powered loads. I think about this after every comp.... And always come back with the same answer. Shoot what I have to carry out of what I have to carry it in. But the "What If?" still nags me.. Edited to add: I just saw the scores from the knockdown steel on the 12th. There's the suckage! 11th place... Blech....

I am just offering my opinion, based on my first hand knowledge and experience of the equipment mentioned and the experiences related to me by other shooters who are vastly more qualified than me to comment on the topic. The OP never said anything about eye problems [EDIT: He did in fact state it in a later post, not the original. My apologies. In any case, that doesn't change anything, because he stated it bothers him with irons and he is asking about, and we are talking about, RDS/Reflex]. And even if he did, where did you get the notion that people with vision problems don't usually shoot at "Close self defense" distances? What do you consider "close self defense" distances, by the way, and what about vision problems would make someone not shoot at those distances? In reference to the tube like quality of an RDS, any RDS optic tube becomes basically a 2D circle as soon as you look through it. A RDS with proper eye relief has no tube like quality when looking through it. My T1 is about as long as the "tube" on your reflex, and when I line everything up, I do not even notice the body of the sight. Even with my non dominant eye closed during a high percentage shot, the FOV is more than adequate to maintain SA through my T1. As far as him not being interested in better optics, the title of the thread is "Aimpoint Pro vs. EOTech 512". I would believe that that shows he is in fact interested in 2 optics superior to the Trijicon Reflex in every way but price (Note I did not say value). He stated the primary mission for this optic was to be placed on a pistol caliber carbine used for Home Defense primarily, and ringing steel in competitions secondary. The self defense role that the OP has placed his carbine indicates a reliable, accurate, quality optic is called for. Inferior products should be avoided at all costs. After all, what is your life worth? The Trijicon Reflex with the amber triangle reticule has a horrible reputation for washing out when used in a dark room while illuminating your target with a bright white light. If the OP is planning to put that optic on his "bump in the night" gun with a bright white light mounted to the fore-end rail, he may run into problems. Combine that with the fact that the Trijicon Mount does not co-witness or remove quickly, he now has a weapon with no working sight system in an emergency situation. That is a recipe for disaster. If he stated that this was a competition only gun, then that is another story. The worst that happens if the reticle fails then, is that he looses a match or two, no biggie. He still hoes home at the end of the day. Nowhere did I state or imply that I was "elite", and one does not need to be "elite" in order to want the best gear to properly fulfill your particular goals. (And FYI the term "operator" is stupid. No one who carries a weapon for a living says that seriously anyway) I am just offering a different viewpoint based on my frame of reference, and offering some advice that I have found useful since I have started shooting. We all have a job we want our equipment to fill, whether it be a flashlight, weapon, computer, optic, or vehicle. When you research and make a decision to purchase said equipment you should buy what works for you in your life, your location, and meets your goals for reliability and service. Just because it works for a Navy SEAL does not mean it is the best thing for a regular Soldier, a Cop, or an Armed Citizen. So yes, your "Mission" should determine what gear you acquire, and how that gear is set up and used. If the OP stated "I want to shoot 4" steel disks at 600m with a pistol, which red dot sight should I get?" that would be a problem, no? You would explain to him that for that kind of shooting you might be better suited with a different weapon platform and accessories. Different "Mission", different "Gear". In regards to equipment making you a better shooter, it does not. As I said it enhances your abilities, it doesn't give you instant sharpshooter status. I agree, IF your fundamentals are good, ie. You are a decent shooter, equipment such as a scope or bipod will enhance your abilities. And that is what I said, if you care to go back and read my post. Such equipment still does not grant you instant improvements in your shooting, if you are not already competent. In your examples above you prove my points. The magnified optic will help shooter with failing eyesight SEE his target better, not shoot better. If he does not have a grasp of trigger control, sight alignment/sight picture, the manual of arms for the platform he is operating, etc... He will not be any better of a shot. He will just have a better view of his miss. A bi-pod will hold the weapon steady. Again, that will enhance your ability, not bestow ability, because holding the weapon steady is not all there is to shooting. Don't make the all too common mistake of buying into hardware fixes for software problems. Finally, making it easier is not the same as making it possible. Yeah, it is easier to make a hit on 8" steel plate at 200 yards with a 4x scope and a match trigger, but that doesn't mean you are a better shooter now because yesterday you shot a stock AR and missed.

Just a couple quick things about optics. First and most importantly, always let your mission drive the gear purchases. Think about what you need/want to do and buy equipment that enhances you ability to do so. That being said, no optic will make you a better shot, magnified optics included. Only practice and training with the equipment you have will do that, whether it is irons, RDS, or magnified. If you are a crappy shot without an optic, you will be a crappy shot with an optic. That does not mean that a RDS (Red Dot Sight) or reflex sight can not enhance your shooting ability. They can make it easier to learn to be a good shot, and with practice can enable you to get faster hits in a variety of positions and at great distances. It is just that an RDS is not a panacea for all your shooting woes. You still need to practice and become comfortable using it. As far as magnified optics I have found that they help you SEE better but not Shoot better. Since we are talking about an optic for a pistol caliber carbine I don't see realistic shots past 75 yards or so. A RDS will do everything you need, and do it faster, than a magnified optic inside 100 yards, and with practice you can ring steel way past 250 yards with an RDS. Also, if you are using an RDS correctly it does not appear that you are looking through a tube. The optics body does not interfere with your situational awareness at all and you really do not even see it. You simply get the proper sight picture, apply your shooting fundamentals and repeat. The optic does not cause "Tunnel Vision" or lack of SA. A high heart rate and its physiological side affects coupled with bad habits and a lack of training and experience are the culprits there. The optic shown on the Baretta above is the Trijicon Reflex. It used to be part of the SOPMOD kit for the M4. It is no longer included in the kit and for cause. They had many issues with that sight and in any case, there are now many better options out there. Yes the better options are more expensive options but, you really do get what you pay for. Buy once, cry once as they say. Also I understand that the the Trijicon Reflex Sights don't need batteries but the Aimpoint M4 and M4s have a 70,000 hour battery life and the T1 has a 50,000 hour battery life! You could turn the sight on to it's middle visible setting and the battery will last well over 5 years. I have 2 T1s on my ARs and I leave them on all the time, I never turn them off. That is one less thing to do when there is a bump in the night. Just pick up the carbine, sling and charge. I have had one of my T1s on a training carbine on for 3.5 years on setting 8 with the same battery and it should run for another 1.5 years. For my social rifle I spend the $3.00 and change the battery every 4th of July just to be safe. On the other hand, after experimenting I have found that the EO-Tech on my Remington 870 has a battery life of around 175 hours and the batteries need to be replaced monthly whether the sight is on or not, unless I remove the batteries from the housing completely. If you choose a quality optic, I would not get to wrapped up around the axel about Co-Witnessing the iron sights. The chances of a quality peice of gear failing or getting damaged is pretty slim for what you are planning to do with the weapon. But, if you are still concerned about it, get a LaRue Quick Release mount for whatever optic you decide on and then you can just remove the optic if you need the irons. It also looks like the T1 in the factory low mount would Co-Witness quite nicely in the lower 1/3 of the optic. Whatever you choose to get, practice with it and use it in all lighting conditions. See what works and what doesn't. Take a class or two and really wring it out. I hope this helps and good luck!