AVB-AMG

We received 26-27 inches in Summit. It will take all day to shovel us out. We are not going anywhere today....

bdhszy1: You are making some broad assumptions about the distinctions between the public users of the range and the range employees. So here is what you are missing based on the wording of RTSP's stated range rules for anyone using its range, other than employees: Note: other gun ranges have similar rules. (I did a "cut & paste" from the RTSP web site under their Range Rules section): 5. No loaded firearms are to enter or exit the building. All magazines and speed loaders must be unloaded. Loaded firearms at firing line only. No firearms are permitted in the store area without being in a locked container. 12. Wearing or drawing from a holster is only permitted for law enforcement, military and RTSP approved civilians who have passed an efficiency test with an RTSP representative/RSO. 14. All firearms must arrive and leave the range in a case. No uncased firearms may leave the shooting booth area.

That is also what I thought... As explained to a number of us by a local attorney who is conversant in NJ gun law, at an evening seminar with the topic of NJ Gun Law, held this past December at RTSP.

AverageJoe: Thanks... can you explain further what you need to do to qualify, if anything, in addition to what I originally wrote as my understanding in my first post on this thread? (Also, see what I wrote in my post #9 from the GFH/Woodland Park Range.) Does RTSP have some form of similar qualification process?

Howard: Interesting... Good point. So is everyone who is open carrying at these ranges carrying a pistol that is unloaded? I have seen magazines inserted into their pistols so are they empty or not? Just curious.... Just to be clear, here is a "cut & paste" from RTSP's web site from their section on Range Rules for the general public as well as members. So I assume this does not apply to the range staff: "5. No loaded firearms are to enter or exit the building. All magazines and speed loaders must be unloaded. Loaded firearms at firing line only. No firearms are permitted in the store area without being in a locked container." Also, interestingly, here is a "cut & paste" from the Range Rules section from the web site for Gun For Hire/Woodland Park Range: "Wearing or drawing from a holster is only permitted for law enforcement, military , Gun For Hire, LLC and Woodland Park Range, LLC approved civilians who have passed a holster draw class and an efficiency test with a Gun For Hire, LLC or Woodland Park Range, LLC Range Safety Officer (RSO)."

Question: Is it actually legal in NJ for employees of a gun range to open carry a firearm? First of all this is NOT a criticism. I have observed at a number of gun ranges that I have visited in NJ that most, but not all, of the staff, (sales, counter, instructors), open carry a pistol, usually on their belt. I do not have a problem with this but I am curious if that is actually legal in NJ. Does anyone here know the answer to that question? I do know that any of us can legally open carry whatever we want inside our own homes and within the boundaries of our property. I also thought that business owner(s), but only the business owner(s), also have the right to open carry anywhere inside their place of business. Yet I thought that only applied to the business owners, not employees, staff, or consultants. Since it is so prevalent, I am probably misunderstanding NJ gun law. I tried to find where in NJ Law this question is addressed and here is what I found: (I did a cut & paste from Section 2C:2C:39-6): e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location. I understand that all employees of any NJ gun range have to undergo an in-depth state required application process. There is a Federal law requiring all firearms Dealers, (must be over the age of 21) and their employees, (must be over the age of 18), must obtain and renew every 3 years, a retail license from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms (ATF), before they can engage in the retail sale of firearms in NJ. The process involves submitting an application to the NJ State Police, specifically, the NJSP’s Firearms Investigation Unit, which determines if the applicant or employee meets the state’s requirements. If acceptable, the application is then forwarded to a NJ Superior Court Judge in the same County as the place of business (gun range/retail store). That Judge has the discretion to decide if the applicant, (owner and/or employee), meets the standards and qualifications established by the NJSP and also could qualify to obtain a NJ Firearms Purchaser Identification Card (FPIC) and then either grants or denies the license. So their having to go through this laborious process is why I am pretty confident that all of the staff at these gun ranges have been properly vetted and are more sane and safe with guns than many other NJ residents. Does anyone on NJGF know where NJ law clearly states that this is legal or is the ambiguity of the law such that it just an accepted interpretation allowing employees to open carry? Please help clarify this for me.

AverageJoe: Thanks for the heads-up. I am not surprised. Good call to play it safe for staff, members and any others to stay off the roads.

Bringing this thread back to the topic started by the OP, I was impressed and amused by the ingenuity of that guy coming up with such a simple looking, "now-you-see-it-now-you-don't", yet "Rube Goldberg" type of mechanical solution to the front license plate issue. I looked into trying to do something similar for my M6 but the oil cooler is in the way of where the mechanism would be located so it was a No Go.... It also has other possible uses for signs, statements or images that could be temporarily visible in the rear view mirrors of a driver in front of you. Hmm.... AVB-AMG

Rob0115: Like you, I am a "car guy". My first high-performance car was a M-B AMG. Today, I also have an AMG, as well as a M-Series. I enjoy the smile that each put on my face when I drive them and grit my teeth when I have to deal with various repair issues on each. AVB-AMG

Some of you may find it interesting to see what one BMW owner from NYC came up with as a very creative solution, involving a custom mechanical device that he installed on his M5 sedan. He can control it from the driver's seat, to solve the legal requirement vs. aesthetic preference of the front license plate dilemma. Here is the link to the YouTube video: AVB-AMG

Ok, now you have raised a topic that, while minor, is another one of my pet peeves regarding automobiles. New Jersey requires both front and rear license plates on all passenger vehicles, except for vehicles registered as 'historic', that are older than 25 years, which are required to only have one license plate mounted on the rear of the vehicle. On my 2014 BMW M6 Coupe I decided that installing a bracket, along with a my license plate on the front of my vehicle would be a major aesthetic blemish on the sleek design of the front of the car. The idea of the awful look, compounded by having to drill either 2 or 4 holes into the plastic front bumper is not appealing to me at all! I know that there are companies that sell license plate brackets that will screw into the front tow bolt socket so one does not have to drill holes into the plastic front bumper, but it still looks most unfortunate.... I have not installed a front license plate on any of our vehicles since 2007 and have never had any problems about this issue with any Police officers in any state that I have traveled. That is, until last summer when I was finally pulled over by an LEO who asked me where my front license plate is? Specifically, it was a Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (PANYNJ) Police Officer who was manning a booth at the Manhattan entrance to the Holland Tunnel that leads to NJ. In what I must assume is a very boring post, he must find something to help pass the time and this issue is one that he probably looks for on many nice vehicles. In any event, he asked to see my paperwork, (Driver's License, Registration and Insurance ID Card), which I provided to him. He asked why I did not have a front license plate. I explained that I was waiting to receive the proper mounting bracket from my BMW Dealer and had the plate in the trunk of the car. He came back and said that since I have no infractions and my paperwork was in order that he would give me a warning, but that if he saw me again without a front license plate that he would issue me a ticket. Then, being the smart-ass that I can be, I asked why he was concerned about this since I was in New York City at this location and my car is registered in NJ. He said that PANYNJ Police enforce the traffic laws of both New York and New Jersey. I admit that he is technically correct regarding the law and that I have been lucky so far as to not have had any prior warnings or tickets about this issue. Yet it really does bug me that this is an issue at all. There are 17 states in this country that only require a rear license plate on passenger cars. E-ZPass cameras at most toll booths are positioned at both the front and rear of the toll-charging lane to record the license plate information of all vehicles passing through. Why is it really necessary to have two license plates, rear AND front....??? I have read that temporarily putting the front license plate on top of the dashboard facing out of the windshield is not acceptable, since most states that require front license plates on cars, (not trucks), have dimensional requirements that say it cannot be located more than 18 inches or so above the road level, or language along those lines. So while I agree that this is a very minor issue that the NJ State Legislator is considering, as opposed to the more pressing issues affecting our state, I support eliminating the requirement for a front license plate on passenger cars, recognizing that one plate on the rear is sufficient. AVB-AMG

Driving seems to cause and create quite a few pet peeves for most of us..... AVB-AMG

I agree with Newtonian here.... When my wife is riding with me when I am driving she constantly reminds my to drive slower and try to not get so pissed off at the sudden dumb actions by other drivers. She tells me to take a deep breath, remember that life is too short to get my blood pressure elevated over things that I have no control over and to be thankful for what we have: our health, nice cars and most importantly, each other. Now only if I could remember all of that when I am driving solo......

In the warmer weather months I will ride my bicycle to my gym, which is only about 1 mile each way on relatively lightly traveled suburban streets. I usually avoid wearing spandex and instead wear a bright yellow Helmet and jacket or vest. I also have a headlight and tail light that is on for add'l. visibility. I think many drivers are surprised when I actually stop at red lights with the cars and stay as far to the right of the lane as possible. What really surprised and concerns me is when I am driving in Manhattan and have to deal with the folks riding the rental Citibikes. Almost all of these knuckleheads do not wear a helmet or highly visible or reflective clothing, nor do they stop at red traffic lights. The worst is when I am driving home at the end of the day when it is dark out and these idiots are riding these bikes without lights. Talk about putting their lives in jeopardy....!

JackDaWack: Excellent video! I can relate..... AVB-AMG

I spend on average 3 hours a day M-F commuting via automobile from NJ into NYC and back to NJ. Having spent over 40 years driving automobiles I have two automobile driving pet peeves that I believe I am not alone in sharing. They really annoy and frustrate me and probably many other drivers as well and are very unsafe and could possibly lead to traffic accidents. They are: 1. Left Lane Losers – My term for the knucklehead drivers who insist on driving in the left lane of a two lane highway, either at or less than the posted speed limit, even when the driving conditions are optimal and traffic volume may be either light or medium. It is NJ state law that slower traffic must stay in the right lane. But these folks seem content to mosey along in the left lane, even when they can easily and safely move over to the right lane to allow faster traffic behind them to pass. Usually quite a number of cars start to back up behind the slow moving car in the left lane and then, when possible race around and pass them in the right lane. I envision that the driver of that slow car in the left lane is either some stubborn old fart, (usually male, but sometimes female), who is thinking to themselves “I am going the speed limit and let everyone behind me be damned….”. Either that or they are oblivious to the law and general rules of the road and are just bad drivers. I wish American drivers had to undertake the much more rigorous driver’s education and licensing tests required in most Western European countries, (other than Italy), where the drivers are much more disciplined and religiously stay in the right lane, keeping the left lane open for faster traffic, (in countries where they drive on the right side of the road). 2. Lights Out Losers – My term for the other knucklehead drivers who are driving their cars when it is dark outside and/or in the rain and do not turn on their headlights/tail lights. This usually occurs during the early evening or anytime it is raining. This includes the naïve drivers who think that just having their front parking lights on is sufficient. Many older model automobiles are not wired to turn on their tail lights as well, when only the front parking lights are turned on, so the rear of the car is dark. Also, this includes the drivers who insist on driving many miles and days with either a burned out headlight and/or tail light, thinking they will eventually get around to having the dead lamp replaced, unaccepting the danger they are putting themselves and other drivers in. I experienced both the aggravating LLL’s and LOL’s in NJ as well as when I am traveling through many other states on road trips, but it really seems to me to be more prevalent in New Jersey. What have you all experienced while driving on NJ’s roads and do you share my frustrations, aggravations and safety concerns about these two types of drivers? AVB-AMG

Ok, I have had some training and I have practiced retrieving my gun and flashlight and moving to the bedroom door, then if clear, to the top of the stairs and have said what I think I would want to say, (see first part of my earlier post…). Am I confident that this would all occur as smoothly as practiced? No. Would I put on hearing protection in the event of an actual break-in by an intruder? No. In all seriousness, thankfully, I have never had a break-in to our home so I really do not know exactly how I would react and think putting on any hearing protection, while being a good idea to protect my short and long term hearing ability, is not very realistic. I agree with PD2K, Lalo, and mipafox…. Honestly, with the adrenaline really flowing and the nervousness, concern, and yes, fear, I seriously doubt most people would have the clear presence of mind to remember to put on any form of hearing protection before they proceed to do everything else that they need to do, gun in hand as rapidly and coherently as they possibly can. Also, as GrumpyOldRetiree stated earlier, I think I would want to be able to clearly hear any verbal response to my statements or questions by whomever has entered our home. If the intruder turns out to be somebody I know and has some bizarre, yet valid reason for coming into our house, I certainly want to hear their voice, explanation and not shoot them. Most self-defense trainers recommend that in this situation that you be very quiet and listen, try to determine how many intruders there are, if they are ransacking the house and most importantly, are they making their way towards you. You need to be able to hear them.... As important, is to be able to clearly hear whatever the responding LEO’s are saying and instructing, since we would have already called them to report an intruder break-in.

If I am upstairs in our bedroom and hear an intruder rummaging around downstairs in the middle of the night, my plan is as follows: - Wake up my wife and have her call 911, give them our address and request LEO help and keep the line open so they will record what I am saying. - Turn on my bedside lamp, look at the clock, swear.... - Open my gun safe and retrieve my loaded pistol and flash light. - Go to the bedroom door and cautiously look around and then loudly yell the following down to the intruder: "I have a gun and know how to use it and will do so unless you leave our house immediately" "The police have been called and they are on their way here now" "Give me a minute to put on my 'eyes and ears protection" "For that matter, give me a minute to put on some clothes..." "Take the TV in the living room since it is the oldest one we have and once you have stolen it I can get a brand new one paid for by my insurance company" "If you touch my good Scotch I will be really mad and come down there and shoot you...." For the benefit of the OP, I had not really thought about the hearing issue until you brought it up in this thread. In all seriousness, while it would be nice to apply some form of hearing protection, with one's adrenaline pumping furiously and your mind racing through all sorts of defensive scenarios, I seriously doubt you would have the frame of mind to put them on or in your ears before you react to the threat.. If you and/or the assailant actually got to the point of firing your weapons, I agree with chris327 that your temporary or possibly permanent hearing loss would be most unfortunate, but probably the least of your problems.... AVB-AMG

I have always been a “car” guy and this is the screen name I came up with many years ago when I started participating in multiple online automobile forums. AVB are the initials of my name. AMG is the short version name of Mercedes-AMG GmbH, which is the high performance automotive engineering and manufacturing division of Mercedes-Benz, headquartered in Affalterbach, Germany. The letters AMG stand for the last names of two of the founders: Hans Werner Aufrecht and Erhard Melcher and the “G” stands for GroBaspach, (Aufrecht's birth Town). My avatar is the AMG crest superimposed via PhotoShop, over the Mercedes-Benz logo and trademark 3-pointed star, bordered with a laureate wreath and brand name,that was developed in 1926 to celebrate the merging of Daimler and Benz, to form Mercedes-Benz.

Dig0770: Thank you for the clarification... AVB-AMG

Gus: Thank you. I will figure out how to apply for a 2016 WMA license, specifically for the shooting clays option. AVB-AMG

Ok, I know this may seem like an elementary question, but as a non-hunter, what does WMA stand for? (Let the smart ass comments begin....)

From what I read today, the upcoming change in Virginia is intended to prevent people convicted of a felony, domestic abusers, those adjudicated mentally ill or incompetent, recently convicted drunk drivers and dishonorably discharged military personnel from using a permit from those 25 states in Virginia. The PR statement indicates that the change came after a review by Gov. Herring's office and the Virginia State Police of the 30 states whose concealed handgun permits are valid in Virginia under a reciprocity policy. For many, the important fact is that Virginia will continue to recognize concealed-carry permits from Michigan, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah and West Virginia.

Today, Dec. 22, 2015, NJ.com has this online article titled: Christie's concealed carry plan ripped by both sides of gun control debate It reports that Gov. Chris Christie is taking heat from both Democratic lawmakers and Second Amendment rights activists over the Governor's proposed plan to broaden access to concealed carry permits in New Jersey. Here is the link to the article: http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/12/dems_gun_activists_blast_christies_concealed_carry.html#incart_river_home AVB-AMG

I need to continue to practice the fundamentals that I have learned so I plan to resume some lessons at G&H in January, after the Christmas / New Year's holiday and into the first quarter of 2016. With this unseasonably mild weather possibly continuing into January, it will be nice to be outside more that most of us have been in previous January's.... AVB-AMG