PDM

I think the jury is still out on Christie. His comments on the news the other night could be read either way. He certainly didn't come out in support of additional restrictions, but clearly will consider them. I know many disagree and like bashing him. I do think that he has a lot of common sense and isn't willing to rock the boat makes me hopeful that he may not be willing support additional restrictions.

And by the way, the 10 round mag bills currently proposed in NJ -- no grandfathering. So IF these were to pass, kiss your 15 rd pmags, Sig P226 mags, H&K mags, etc. goodbye. Just pointing out what's at stake.

Look, two newspapers that I read yesterday (Daily News and the Post, admittedly both rags), both reported Rep Sheldon Silver as saying that they were 95% done with a deal. I fully understand that nothing has passed yet and I am far from a defeatist. I was simply pointing out that this one aspect of Cuomo's proposal is clearly the very worst and that no one -- either in the libtard media or on our side -- has clearly spelled out what the consequences of this will be. I was speaking with a shotgun owning friend of mine who sort of leans towards the idea of some mag limits, and his eyes opened wide when I took the time to walk him through the consequences of the proposed 7 round limit -- de facto confiscation of a huge array of semi-automatic handguns by virtue of the fact that there will likely be no legal mags for them. As for the impossibility of no grandfather clause, you do realize that is exactly what happened in NJ when it adopted a 15 round limit? Anyone with a larger mag was SOL. I really don't get the attitude of some of the dummies on this forum who think that any discussion of the implications of proposed legislation = "whining" and lack of will to fight. How can we edcate people if we don't discuss what proposed legislation might do and why it would be bad. And as for NY, the Republicans in the state assembly and senate don't have much power. Don't count on them to stand up to Cuomo on this. We'll see.

Haelous -- it's all over the news. Do a google search, or go to the NY Daily News website. As to the "good news" you are assuming that this type of cancer doesn't spread. Believe me, once a mag ban passes with no grandfathering -- de facto confiscation -- that idea will take root and other states will try it. I would not be at all surprised if State Senator Weinberg and Assemblyman Cryan here in NJ don't resubmit their bills with lower limits. And oh, by the way, even if they don't, I'm pretty sure that the NJ 10 round mag bill also doesn't have a grandfather clause. Meaning that the 15 round Glock 19 mags, and 12 round H&K mags, and 15 round Sig P226 mags, and 15 round "jersey legal" AR pmags that you might own will instantly turn you into a felon. Have fun trying to sell those out of state. Still think it's "good news"?

Yes Lunker, which is why I put "lucky" in quotation marks. How is it that no one is making noise about the hundreds or thousands of dollars in financial loss that most NY gun owners will suffer? I can't believe I haven't seen one word about this anywhere. I think we need to start making noise about that issue before it happens here.

So it looks like the new round of NY gun laws will pass. By far, the worst aspect of the new law will be the 7 round mag limit. There is NO grandfathering provision, which means that possession of a magazine -- pistol or rifle -- that holds more than 7 rounds will be a felony. That's bad enough -- imagine how much of a financial hit YOU would take if you had to dispose of all mags over 7 rounds with zero compensation. What makes it even worse is that the vast majority of semi-autos will be rendered inoperative. Of course, I have not seen one comment in the media -- anywhere -- pointing this out. Anyone ever see a 7 round glock magazine? I dunno, maybe they'll start making them. The only guns I'm aware of that us mags that take 7 rounds or less are officers size 1911s, and Kahrs and other micro pistols. This was quite obviously Cuomo's intent all along -- it's a backdoor ban on semi-auto pistols. I'm actually surprised that the bills pending in NJ are only proposing a 10 round limit. Wonder if that will change. This is really, really horrible. I'm don't hold out too much hope for judicial relief here, but I'd imagine there will be legal challenges, both under the 2A (challenging this as a defacto ban on commonly owned handguns) and under the takings clause.

Well maybe that's part of our problem in this state.

So what is the tipping point? When is enough enough? When do things get so bad that you are actually willing to disobey unjust laws and risk incarceration or worse? Certainly most people won't be willing to go out on a limb and risk everything they have over their guns. "They are taking my semi-autos? Well, that's horrible but I'm not going to jail for it. I'll be able to defend myself with a pump shotgun." "They just banned pump shotguns. OK, I have a revolver." "No more revolvers, eh things will be ok. I'll live with it." Not looking for answers, but I have been thinking about these things. People sometimes wonder how the Jews went "like sheep" to their deaths in WWII. I can tell you from personal knowledge that it wasn't that simple. The Nazis were very smart, and imposed restrictions incrementally, over a number of years. First, exclusion from certain professions. Then universities. Gun confiscation. The yellow star. Then one day a knock at the door at night and a local police officer, maybe someone you knew, asking the head of the house to just come down to the police station for questioning. In that situation would you say "no", attack a police officer and go on the run with your family, or would you go along assuming you'd be home shortly? Of course, those men (like my grandfather) taken away by local police working at the German's direction (not German soldiers), lnever returned, leaving the women and children and the community leaderless. Soon after an announcement comes that everyone remaining had to move to a ghetto in 2 days. Then a few weeks or months later, after half starving to death crammed together in an apartment with three other families, an order comes to report to the train station with one bag each, with the "promise" of being "relocated" for work on farms. Are you going to fight then? Organize the weakened people remaining to fight? People got used to to each incremental restriction and said "things aren't that bad. things will change" right up to the point they were in the cattle cars with no more options and no way to fight back. That's basically what happened to my father. I'm not remotely saying we are living in Nazi Germany, but we are most definitely losing our freedoms, bit by bit. Any lingering doubt about this has been dispelled by the nationwide hysteria -- yes hyesteria -- since Sandy Hook. We all know that in reality we could all "live with" a 10 round magazine limit. But what about Cuomo's 7 which will essentially elimiaten private ownership of semi-auto firearms? What about an executive order to register all semi-autos under the NFA. What are YOU going to do??

How are people sending letters commenting on bills that haven't even been released yet (other than the titles)?

If you actually listen to what he had to say, it is somewhat encouraging. He brushed off several questions and basically said "we'll see." That's a hell of a lot better than what Cuomo is doing. Christie is actually getting a fair amount of flack from the anti-gun crowd for not coming out and saying that we need more gun laws now. Before slamming him I think we need to see how this develops.

The mag capacity bills (NJA3664 and S2475) are not yet posted on the NJ legislature website. Does anyone have an inkling whether they will include grandfathering? Not that they'd be ok with grandfathering, but I'm trying to get a sense of just how bad they are.

I've signed up to come and am bringing at least one person. Two questions: 1) What is the Riverline? I have never been to Trenton (and never would go there but for this rally). Anyone have any suggestions on the best place to park/get to the rally coming from the North on the Turnpike? 2) Where is the ANJRPC in all of this?! I am an ANJRPC member and received an email on the 18 proposed anti-gun bills the same day they were announced, but not a peep from them about this rally. The NJ2AS is doing an amazing job, but don't state rifle and pistol organizations in other states normally play a major role in organizing these kinds of events? I hope the ANJRPC is at the very least contacting each and every one of its member clubs to push them to send a delegation. You'd think that the ANJRPC alone should be able to mobilize hundreds of people to attend.

We all agree (I think) that people with violent felony convictions and seriously mentally ill people shouldn't own guns (with some arguing that even violent felons should be given a chance to regain their 2A rights after a probationary period). With that in mind: keep current background check system; add background checks for face to face private sales provided that they are free, take no more than 1 hour (with burden on government so that sale is free to proceed if results not back in 1 hour), and no permanent record kept. Imrpove mental health screening, treatment and reporting. National CCW reciprocity permit with permit holder required to pass a background check and certificate of completion of NRA personal protection outside the home or equivalent (with less restrictive state laws not pre-empted for residents of those states). Remove supressors from NFA catgeory.

I'm firmly in the "we do and should draw a line" category, and that line is military weapons. As the Court in Heller put it, weapons in common use for lawful purposes in particular self-defense are protected by the 2A. Seems to me that semi-autos of all varieties and styles clearly fall under the 2A. Fully automatic weapons, grenade launchers, stingers, etc. do not. There is a good reason for this. While the "militia" refers to the body of law abiding citizens available to defend the state and themselves against tyranny (ranging from would-be dictators to garden variety criminals), giving any individual access to offensive military weapons -- machine guns designed for supression of troops, artillery, etc. -- would give that one individual far too much power. Do you really want joe the terrorist to be able to walk into a gun shop, plunk down a few thousand bucks and walk out with an M60? And yes, an M60 is potentially far more lethal in terms of killy large numbers of people than a semi-auto, just as a semi-auto is more lethal than a bolt action rifle for that purpose. Do you want that person to be able to buy a stnger and bring down a plane? The power of the milita comes from its collective nature -- no one person or small group could bring down the state, but protectors of liberty could band together to stand up to tyrrany. The notion that any and all weapons should be available on the open market is insane.

Out of curiosity, I just googled ADT reviews. Holy crap, does seem like many people are pissed off with their customer service and marketing techniques. It does seem like many of the problems arise with thrid party resellers and their lousy technicians and over the top high pressure sales tactics. I had a good experience with my initial install 10 years ago -- maybe I got lucky -- and dealt with ADT corporate since then, including on the requested upgrade (which hasn't been installed yet). I can understand why having a reliable local person might be better, but I guess everyone's mleage varies and for me ADT has been fine.

TK421 -- you obviously have some first hand experience with them and I can believe that they are crappy to work for, but from my perspective the system they sold me has worked for 10 years and the monthly fees are low, so I don't really understand specifically in what ways another place might be better.

Curious, exactly what makes ADT "junk." I've used them for 10 years, the wireless system has been very reliable and they always respond very quickly when I test the system or set it off accidentally. I think we've had 2 service calls in 10 years. Customer service has always been great (no call centers in India). And it's $35 a month. The installation cost was minimal so I don't much care if it's proprietary or not because I have little invested in it. Just wondering because I am now planning to upgrade to their remote access service and would be interested to hear -- specifically -- how a local service would be better and as cost effective.

Interesting hypothetical. You'd need 34 states to call a convention (this method has never been used). Congress can also approve a proposed amendment by a 2/3 supermajority vote which is then sent to the states for ratification (I think this is how prohibition was passed). This method will obviously never happen, so a state call for a convention to propose the amendment would be the only way (I'm not sure how a national convention would actually work). You'd need 38 states to vote to ratify any amendment. The clear anti-gun states that I can name are: NY, NJ, MA, MD, CA, Ill. Possible anti-gun states (or at least anti-gun enough not to ratify an amendment strengthening the 2A) that I can think of are Oregon, Wisconsin, Ohio, Maine and maybe a few others. You'd think it might be theoretically possible -- and it does seem more likely than an amendment repealing the 2A -- but I doubt it could ever happen.

Pretty ambitious. You couldn't get 1,000 people in this State to show up for a pro-gun rally let alone 1 million apply for CCW.

A nice o/u shotgun for trap, and the GFH urban carbine course (assuming .223 is still available and carbines are not banned).

I can see the compromise now: "High capacity magazines may only be owned by a competitive shooter certified as such by a recognized governing body or other organization overseeing the following sporting disciplines ..... and such magazines may only be transported from the home directly to a sanction sporting event in such discipline in a triple locked case guarded by rabid wolverines."

My parents are always giving me grief about my owning guns (and I'm in my mid-40s!). Funny thing is that I just spoke to my mom and she was outraged by the publishing of the gun owners' names in NY and was sounding like a die-hard NRA member. I do think that gun control extremists are overplaying their hand. I know that what I've been reading about in the past week has been pushing me farther and farther away from my inclination to be moderate.

I've previously posted elsewhere that I am dissatisfied with the NRA's response to Newtown. And I am. But it doesn't matter anymore. The more I read about what's being proposed -- this new AWB proposal, Governor Cuomo's gun confiscation plan, the publishing of gun owners' names and addresses in NY, NJ Assemblyman Cryan's 5 round magazine limit proposal, etc., etc. -- the more I feel that I have no choice but to join the "no compromise" camp and unreservedly support the NRA. I'm a moderate by nature, some might even call me a "RINO", but when it comes to the Second Amendment it appears that there is no room for compromise or even discussion. Sad, really. But when faced with what is a clear attempt to strip our freedoms and turn this country into England and Australia, I really don't think there is a choice anymore.

Of course a five round limit would effectively ban all semiauto handguns. I suppose revolver sales would pick up although I'm sure someone will propose a ban on speed loaders as well.

Well this a perfect example of why it isn't "reasonable" to license gun owners. Subjects them to risk and increases risk of gun theft.