AVB-AMG

Smokin .50: Actually, I really appreciated your thoughful post sharing your real experiences dealing with this issue and respect your opinion on this topic. Why would you think otherwise? AVB-AMG

jackandjill: You make a reasonable point... thank you. I believe that most parents have a bit of paranoia when it comes to protecting their children and have good intentions, but ultimately need to figure out what is realistic and reasonable. Thank you for at least thinking that I have good intentions... Anyone thinking that I do not is incorrect and makes for an unfortunate misunderstanding of my motives. AVB-AMG

InFamous: I agree that this is an important issue and I expect you will get many different opinions from those willing to share them. When asked, I explain to my friends/neighbors that I was 11 years old when I first learned how to shoot a .22 bolt-action long rifle rimfire at a summer camp, as well as continuing through my early teens as a member of the Junior Essex Troop of Cavalry, (the junior mounted troop affiliated with the 1st Squadron, B Troop of the 102nd Armored Cavalry Regiment of the New Jersey Army National Guard, based at the Armory in West Orange, NJ). All shooting was under strict instruction and supervision by adults, where I learned to respect firearms and how to handle them properly, as well as shoot rifles accurately from a standing, kneeling and prone position. My instructors were knowledgeable and very strict that I learn how to safely use a gun and understand and respect that they are not toys. I really enjoyed .22 rifle shooting, joined a rifle team and over the next three years, became quite proficient, working my way up to the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program Sharpshooter level - Bar 9. Then by age 14, with raging hormones, I discovered girls and left my interest in guns behind, not to be resurrected until many years later. IMHO, at this point I believe that 10-11 yrs. old is the ideal safe age for teaching most, but not all children, to fire age-appropriate weapons in a patient, methodical, and controlled setting. Every child is different and therefore a strict age limit is very hard to impose by any gun range. Teaching a child about firearms is key and should be performed first by knowledgeable adults and only under very good supervision, taking into account the child's strength, maturity and discipline. Also, the parent should recognize that the selection of the appropriate caliber of the weapon needs to be factored in as well. Starting them off with something like an airsoft gun or a pellet/bb gun is far more appropriate though until they have the necessary physical ability and maturity to handle a real gun. Most importantly, I was taught and children should be taught to never point the gun at anything that I/they did not want to put a hole in. Live firing of any weapon should never supersede intensive gun safety instruction. There is no substitute for it. You can't put the horse before the cart. Also, loading a gun with one round and one round only, is a good way to start off a child so instruction may be performed after every shot, until they learn what to do properly. Most young children with their parents at the ranges I frequent in NJ are well behaved and seem to listen intently to what their parent and/or instructor is telling them to do and not to do. What concerns me is what I have observed on occasion at some ranges in other States. Some very young children, younger than 10 years of age have not demonstrated the discipline or attention span to understand and abide by necessary range/firearm safety precautions. While the parents may have good intentions, they have not really thought it through and are risking the safety of their child as well as others on the range. I have witnessed examples of a child running around the ports, picking up shell casings from the ground and not properly holding a gun. It scares the heck out of me and RSO’s have had to intervene, for everyone’s safety. Parents need to act responsibly and rationally and not bring their children to a gun range before they are ready. Sometimes, I have a suspicion that the parent is not thinking beyond their ideas of a "cute" video for YouTube when they set these potential disasters in motion with a child too young to safely be on a shooting range. Yet, if taught properly and continuously reinforced the safe handling of firearms, most children will grow to respect them and appreciate the fun aspect of this recreational sport. What are your experiences with this issue? AVB-AMG

Well Nickjc, you certainly seem to have cynicism and paranoia issues. Too bad you feel that way. So tell me what is a "real gun guy"? Only someone who fits your image or ideal? Maybe you need to wake up and realize that the enjoyment of firearms by many people has evolved from your narrow idea of what constitutes a gun guy. There are many people like me who are re-discovering the fun of shooting guns on a range and/or competitively, in addition to wanting them for self/home defense. Yet, we do not obsess about guns and are not "one issue / 2A" people since we have many other family and work obligations, as well as other diversified interests and hobbies. Look at my posts and you will see that I am a serious and thoughtful contributed to the NJGF and not a "drive by snarky poster", like some seem to be and relish in doing. I like to think of myself as a reasonable, sensible moderate on gun rights, eager to share my thoughts and opinions, while also asking for other opinions and listening and considering them. What I am not is a fanatic advocating absolutes on either side. So that makes me a troll in your book? Really? BTW - Thank you for at least stating your brief opinion on this topic. I respect that, something that you are apparently unwilling to do for me... Maybe it is time to meet and share our thoughts on these issues over a couple of Boddington drafts... AVB-AMG

Parents Have Guns in the Home A separate issue is if the parent keeps a gun in the house, teaching the child how to safely handle it is an absolute necessity, but at what age? If the child sees you with any type of gun they will be very curious and inquisitive. It is the parent’s responsibility to lock up all firearms in a safe that is inaccessible to children, (and others). Then, at an age that the parents feel is appropriate for their child, teach the child basic gun safety, which may most likely be at an even younger age, where it starts with teaching them not to touch a gun without an adult present and supervising; what to do if they find a gun; always treat a gun as if it's loaded; always point the muzzle in a safe direction, etc. It is very important that the parent teach them what it is and is not acceptable, far before graduating to actual shooting. I think in this situation, teaching the child or children should occur at a younger age, as deemed appropriate by the parent, where they may let them see and touch the firearm, explain some of how they work, and start to work on to the safety rules. FYI, here is a very informative and detailed web site on how to teach firearm safety to young children, written by a female firearms instructor and mother: http://www.corneredcat.com/contents What happens when your child goes to one of their friends’ house and the other family may have guns? How will you be a responsible parent and protect him or her there? All you can do is to teach them as best you can and what to do in that type of situation and for them to have the courage to leave an unsafe environment if the other parties refuse to act safely, potentially jeopardizing your child’s safety. You can't child-proof the world, so you must gun-proof the child as best as possible for those “what if” scenarios.

Rifle vs. Handgun Once the parent determines that a child is actually interested in learning how to safely use a firearm, would be to advocate teaching them how to first use a rifle, instead of a handgun. There is an inherent logic on starting a child off with a smaller caliber firearm and once they are comfortable and have demonstrated basic safety, understanding and proficiency with that weapon, then and only then progress to more powerful weapons, all under parental and/or adult supervision. My bias is for children to be taught initially on the use of rifles and shotguns and to not allow the use of a handgun until someone is in their middle teens AND has demonstrated safe use and maturity with other guns. Any other opinions...?

I have been asked by friends and neighbors what I think is the proper age for children to learn about guns, how to safely act with guns and how old they should be before they are allowed to shoot. I am sure most folks here on NJGF have had similar inquiries and also have definite opinions on this topic. There have been some previous threads that addressed this topic but I thought it may make sense to ask the NJGF community their current thoughts on this issue,while sharing my own thoughts and my responses to them. My response to my friends and neighbors is: “It really depends on the specific child AND the parents’ attitude towards guns”. We all have known young children who are very mature for their age, while also knowing young adults or even older adults who are shockingly immature. My perspective on this issue is from growing up in the suburbs, as opposed to a rural or farm setting, so may differ from those who experienced that entirely different environment as a child and teenager. I have explained that in NJ the minimum age for obtaining a hunting license and the prerequisite completion of a hunters education course, is 10 years old, and that the child may hunt only when accompanied by a properly licensed adult aged 21 or older. Another factor is the physicality of the child. Is he or she tall, strong and steady enough to handle the recoil of a rifle? Are they mature enough to understand that the firearm is NOT a toy and what the permanent effects are of something that has been shot? Are they truly interested in learning or is it you, the parent that is possibly prematurely urging them to learn and hoping they will share your interest in guns? All of these are factors that contribute to determining the appropriate age for a child to be introduced to firearms. Just remember that whatever you do is your own responsibility. You are the one who will have to live with whatever choices you make. I tell my friends that they are the best judges of the maturity of their children and that each child is different and finally, to use common sense. It is vital that the parents ensure that their children learn how to safely handle and use a firearm, before live ammunition is ever introduced. It is paramount that the parents take full responsibility to train their children to respect and understand that firearms are weapons and that improper use can be lethal, a concept that children below a certain age find hard to grasp. IMHO, I seriously doubt that a child of 5 or 6 can have the ability to genuinely know how dangerous guns can be, and how very easy it is to accidentally end someone’s life with a single mistake. As with anything else potentially dangerous to children, education is vital, whether it is about sex, alcohol, drugs, fireworks, swimming or guns. Children are naturally curious and it's better for the parent to be proactive to teach their child/children about gun safety as a good preventative measure. If you can't or will not do it, have an experienced professional teacher do it for you in an organized class or if you can afford to, one-on-one instruction. Sometimes, the instructor may have the patience to teach, that the parent may lack. Also, as many parents know, a 3rd party instructor may garner more respect from an older child who may be entering the typical rebellious stage of adolescence. If you don't provide this instruction, someone else may “tell” your child about guns and they may not get it right. AVB-AMG

Old Dog: I did a search in the NJGF for threads that addressed the topic of "age of shooters" and came across your thread from early 2013, before I joined the fourm. My hat is off to you for writing a very well thought out posting based on your extensive personal experience, sharing your thoughts and suggestions. As we all grow older and deal with the physical issues of aging and the resulting effects on effectively using handguns, your lessons and suggestions will be most helpful and appreciated. Thank you...! AVB-AMG

From my home it is 35 mins. to GFH/Woodland Park, 30 mins. to RTSP and 60 mins. to Cherry Ridge Range. AVB-AMG

Old Glock Guy: I guess I am not that hip.... I have never watched the TV series THE WALKING DEAD, let alone any of the many zombie movies. But as a metaphor, I guess zombies could be assumed to represent humanity at its lowest state, at a post (or pre) apocalypse world. In a traumatic existence where people are desperately trying to survive that would accentuate the basic question that we face today: Do we decide to just look out for ourselves and family based on survivalist fear and paranoia or do we have a more compassionate attitude of working with and helping others to achieve a shared goal. (Sort of like the current polarized political divide in this country.....) AVB-AMG

I agree with your statement, but then realize that quite a few people believe in angels as well.....

After 2 weeks: Ultimately, with the lessons learned from Storm Sandy and the precautions and preparations most of us have made, I think the majority of us should be fine staying put in our homes for up to two weeks without electricity. During that second week, let alone beyond, the main concern will be for obtaining food and potable water and people, primarily city-dwellers who do not have the space to stock up and store an adequate supply of both will be the first to panic. They will run out sooner and when they become desperate they will start by looting local stores and then things will rapidly deteriorate and general respect for civil and law-abiding society will crumble. This will result in gang rampages through apartment buildings, targeting the elderly and defenseless first to rob whatever food and supplies they can get. While we in suburbia think we are far enough away from this mob scene, we may be kidding ourselves. Not everyone is predeposed to preparing in advance or has the physical and financial resources to prepare for these “what if” scenarios and they will become equally desperate, just as fast as their urban brethren and may be knocking on your door, or worse, sooner than you think. AVB-AMG

Newtonian: I could not have said it any more succinctly myself..... Stay or Leave?: If we cannot or chose not to stay in our home and/or evacuation is required, we have a Plan A and a Plan B on where we would go, or at least try to go. This begins with having one vehicle, fully fueled with all-wheel drive and good tires with room for us and key items. We have prepared key survival items in “Go Bags”, along with a list of items to take in case we need to evacuate our home. The degree of the emergency will be predicated on the extent and severity of the power outage or unexpected situation. Is it limited to being local in our neighborhood or town, or just in our county, or is it broader, i.e. state-wide or say the northeast U.S. or the entire country…? That reality will certainly influence one’s “bugging out” options and whether realistically it makes sense to attempt to leave your home to attempt to go someplace eles. Keep in mind that we are living in New Jersey, the most densely populated state in the country. So assume all roads will be experiencing very heavy traffic that will be crawling along or clogged with many others in their vehicles with the same idea, as well as others who may be more desperate than us. What happens when you run out of gas? Will you possibly be worse off in that scenerio, if you have yet to reach your desired destination? A rational weighing of the options, chances for success and all of the various possibilities will be necessary to make the best possible choice of what to do. AVB-AMG

Newtonian: To your point, when I started to make a list of what I wanted and felt that I really needed to include in a bug out bag, I quickly came to realize that it all would not fit into one reasonably sized back pack or duffle bag. So I said screw it.... If we have to bug out instead of staying put (bug in), then we will load our bug out luggage (multiple bags), into our fully fueled SUV, put on some good music and start the exodus to a better place, wherever that may be. (Yeah, I know.... Traffic jams while trying to get out of Dodge....) FYI - My choice of high quality made bags are from BLACKHAWK, that use 1000 denier nylon, reinforced stitching and YKK zippers. Therefore, my go bags and their contents will probably last longer than I will in a SHTF scenario..... AVB-AMG

Sort of like the "Pod People" in the classic movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers".....? That would scare the heck out of me! Can I buy you out? What is your price for all of your bug out stuff? $$$$ numbers is the key to survival? (Sorry. My mother was an English major and made sure all of us learned to write proper English. Proof reading one's post prior to posting can prevent confusion, silly typos and embarrassment.... ) I understand your intended point of gaining a higher security level with greater numbers of people, up to a point, until too many people prevents mutual trust and agreement in tactical and strategic choices and decisions. AVB-AMG

I just saw this thread and wanted to express my shock and sadness regarding the news of this most unfortunate event. As a member of RTSP, along with my wife, we have the highest regard towards everyone at RTSP, from the ownership partners, management and staff. They all have been most helpful and accommodating to us in our continued firearm lessons, range time practice and multiple firearm purchases. We will certainly abide by whatever additional rules and regulations they institute to attempt to avoid a repeat or similar incident in the future. While some may find these new rules inconvenient it is their business to run as they see fit, abiding by ever more intrusive insurance requirements. I for one have been surprised and a bit concerned at seeing youngsters under the age of 18 renting and shooting firearms at other ranges. As has been previously stated, suicide will never go away and it is a shame that a disturbed individual chooses to attempt or succeed in this sad act in a public forum surrounded by many other innocent people, whether it is a gun range or other public and populated venue. Everyone at RTSP has our sincere condolences and best wishes on dealing with the aftermath of this.... AVB-AMG Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

As Smokin .50 also indicated, part of the spotting scope research, prior to purchase, needs to also consider tripods. I have an American-made, all-aluminum LEITZ Tilt-All tripod that I bought back in 1978 for my SLR camera. It is a solid, quality tripod that should be more than adequate for a 4-8 lb spotting scope with cover, but I may need to buy an adapter cover plate. I would also like to get a smaller tripod for mounting the spotting scope on a table top at the range. Does anyone here have any suggestions for a high-quality, steady, secure, small or mini tripod for spotting scope use? I am leaning towards a new design from Manfrotto that will be available this October called: PIXI EVO Mini Tripod It has a load capacity of 5.5 lb and a height range from 2.4" to 7.7" and will sell for $50. Here is a link to the B&H website for this item http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1178734-REG/manfrotto_mtpixievo_bk_pixi_evo_mini_tripod.html Any thoughts on the sutiability of this small tripod for use at an outdoor range on a table...(Smokin .50)? Thanks in advance. AVB-AMG

Thanks guys.... I appreciate all of the positive and negative comments about the Cherry Ridge Range. It helped me decide to join for a year and experience it for myself. These places will always evolve and change, hopefully for the better. As shooting gains in popularity in NJ, bringing new shooters to all ranges, safety is a real concern, so I will remember that when I am invariably admonished by a RSO for some sort of infraction. I will chalk it up to a learning experience reminding myself that as members we all agreed to follow these rules to ensure a safe shooting environment. As Neanderthal as NJ is regarding its gun laws I try to remind myself how lucky I (we) am/are to have such a nice and diversified gun range relatively close to my home that does not cost a fortune to join and use. I will paraphrase to an old golf saying, adapting it for any outdoor gun range: "Any day out on the course is better than any day inside your office...." AVB-AMG

My philosophy is similar to Smokin .50 in that I research, read reviews, ask others for opinions based on their experiences and "test drive" equipment where possible, before I decide what to purchase. I am a firm believer that you get what you pay for and when it comes to high quality, one should spend what you can afford to get the best possible quality for the price. Having said that, I was shocked at the prices for the top end of spotting scopes, (Zeiss, Swarovski at around $3,200 - $3,600), followed by the mid-priced Nikon, Kowa and then everyone else. But in order to get a spotting scope that will provide high quality optics with minimal distortion at 300 yards I think I am going to have to pony up some serious bucks to be satisfied.... I have read some very positive reviews for the Meopta Meostar S2 Angle 82mm spotting scope. Has any NJGun Forum member used this scope or has one and can comment on its quality? The body alone retails for around $1,700 and the 30-60x eyepiece is another $500, totalling around $2,200, not including a tripod, case and cover. (Ouch!) Any help and suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. AVB-AMG

I agree with all of Newtonian's points regarding Cherry Ridge Range in his post #20. Like DeerSlayer, I am also a member at RTSP and just recently joined Cherry Ridge Range, so I now have the best of both worlds, a qualtiy indoor range with nice facilities and a retail store as well, and now a large diversified outdoor range in a beautiful natural setting. For the most part, I can only shoot at either range on the weekends due to my M-F work schedule and family obligations. Eventually, I look forward to being able to enjoy both ranges during the week when there are fewer members shooting and less of a wait. Here are some of my thoughts on both ranges: RTSP: Randolph, NJ is only about a 30 minute drive from my home so it is relatively convenient. From my experience, I believe that RTSP is an excellent 5-star indoor range where everyone I have dealt with, from the Owners, Instructors, Retail Sales to General Staff, are all very outgoing, helpful, knowledgeable, and courteous. I have purchased several guns from them getting a member discount and have used them as my FFL for two others. I have taken several courses there which have been very helpful and educational. I even convinced my wife to take a 2-hr. private one-on-one lesson with one of their senior instructors to introduce her to the safe and proper handling and shooting of a hand gun. It turns out she is a pretty good shot and now enjoys joining me at the range every 4-6 weeks to practice and I bought her a membership as well. All in all, while not an inexpensive range, I can highly recommend RTSP. Cherry Ridge Range: Highland Lakes, NJ is just under a 1 hr. drive from my home, but is a nice drive when there is not much traffic. Like many here, I researched the various outdoor ranges in NJ and discovered that Cherry Ridge is one of the very few that have a 200yd and 300yd range for rifles, something that I was specifically looking for. The joining process is very straight forward. I pre-paid via credit card online and attended the mandatory safety orientation seminar on the first Sunday of the month and was up and shooting the same day. I like the fact that I can drive my vehicle right down to the 200 yd range line, making transfering my equipment to and from my station a very convenient short distance. When the weather is nice as it has been this past August and so far in Sept., I really enjoy being able to be outdoors to shoot any gun, pistol or rifle. Cherry Ridge is in a beautifully remote setting which is a nice break from the denser parts of NJ. The members I met while shooting on the 200 yd. range were very friendly and willing to answer some basic procedural questions for a new member and even assist me in zeroing my rifle at that distance. I learned a lot that day, including the fact that I need to invest in a quality spotting scope for future use at both 200 and 300 yards. Since this range is associated with ANJRPC, I appeciate that my dues help support their 2A lobbying efforts in New Jersey. Its annual membership costs are also is not as expensive as some of the other outdoor ranges. AVB-AMG

I am continuing my very eclectic reading list, via Audible audio books that I am listening to on my iPhone and synced via Bluetooth to my car’s audio system So for those who may be interested, here is my most recent list of ‘reads’: 1. American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America By Colin Woodard 2. The Age of Acquiescence: The Life and Death of American Resistance to Organized Wealth and Power By Steve Fraser 3. Food: A Love Story By Jim Gaffigan 4. Tom Clancy Under Fire By Grant Blackwood 5. The End of Normal: The Great Crisis and the Future of Growth By James K. Galbraith 6. When to Rob a Bank: And 131 More Warped Suggestions and Well-Intended Rants By Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubnar (Authors of FREAKONOMICS) 7. The Death of Money: The Coming Collapse of the International Monetary System By James Rickards 8. Griftopia: A Story of Bankers, Politicians, and the Most Audacious Power Grab in American History By Matt Taibbi 9. Political Order and Political Decay: From the Industrial Revolution to the Globalization of Democracy By Francis Fukuyama 10. The Joy of Retirement: Finding Happiness, Freedom and the Life You’ve Always Wanted By David C. Borchard and Patricia A. Donohoe AVB-AMG

If it comes to having to bug out then we will load up our all-wheel drive SUV with our "bug out luggage", (4 pre-packed Blackhawks bags containing most of the items previously discussed by other posters), along with a list of other important and easily accessible items including cash, water, gasoline, firearms, ammo and the really good Scotch. AVB-AMG

Hello MM: You may want to check out two ranges near Parsippany: 1. RTSP in Randolph 2. Gun For Hire in Woodland Park Both offer extensive hand gun and rifle training courses. Good luck in your search. AVB-AMG

That DE gun goes with this car:

A belated welcome.......