Bob B

The new NJ2AS guidance is to call or email all three of your representatives one at a time. Ask each one to intervene. When one agrees to call the Chief on your behalf, call the other two representatives to keep them informed. If everyone does this, it will build a "memory" of problems with the legislature and they will be more likely to vote yes for a bill correcting the problem if and when it comes up for a vote. It may also help us get sponsors and co-sponsors for new bills. What district are you in?

No offense, but more Law Enforcement is not the answer. That's the paradigm in NJ, that the people are like so much helpless cattle to be protected. I find it insulting and degrading. A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. How come it was so obvious 230 years ago, but today we can't seem to figure it out? The reason that Camden is such a mess is because the law-abiding citizens are disarmed and the criminals are armed and, therefore, able to operate with impunity. Well, what did they think was going to happen? Allow concealed carry in Camden and the problem will correct itself a lot faster than any other method.

BLF, Which statute are you attempting to enforce?

I'm kind of perplexed by this whole thread. First, checking the guys "papers" does not determine if the gun is legally owned. It's a pointless exercise. Second, the desire to ensure that you don't leave a gun in the hands of a criminal is valid objective. Hence the dilemma. So, I see only one course of action. You know the guy's name and address, why not just run a warrant search on him to see if he is wanted for anything. If he's clean, you have no RAS and you walk away with a clear conscience. If he is wanted or has a history, you now have RAS and can do whatever you need to, again, with a clear conscience. That's the problem. There is no distinction between the law-abiding and the criminals in NJ gun law. That needs to be part of the law, and it needs to be taught to the police. First find out what side he's on, then you treat the person accordingly. The dilemma that all law enforcement officers face is that NJ's gun laws are unconstitutional. If you believe that, then you must believe that an order to enforce them is an unlawful order. So, you can't begin with enforcement of 2C:39-5, since it is unconstitutional. You must begin with identifying whether or not the individual has criminal intent or is a prohibited person. Once you identify the person as a bad guy, then you can enforce the statutes in good conscience. That's the way I see it. BlueLineFish, Please don't be offended by the impassioned responses. They didn't create this dilemma, and neither did you. It takes vigorous debate like this to try and find the right answer. If I remember my history correctly, there was much acrimony prior to the signing of the Declaration of Independence and the ratification of the Constitution and the writing and adoption of the Bill of Rights. Don't walk away. The need for us to stick together is far more important. You might not like what was said, but, understand that the responses are an indicator that the right course of action has not been discovered yet and look for the answer.

Found it: http://usgovinfo.abo.../blbradyact.htm So, as long as you have a PPP, you are exempt from the Brady requirements. That's a new one for me. So, is the NICS check at point of sale required by NJ Statute or Administrative Code, or both? Update: I don't see anything in the 2C:58-2 or 3 that mandates a NICS check at point of sale. I could only find it in the Administrative Code, 13:54-3.12 and 3.13. This means that Chris Christie could issue an executive order to eliminate the NICS check at point of sale for anyone with a PPP, even if you're buying a rifle or shotgun. No legislative action needed.

That's interesting. I wonder if it has to be a resident permit, or does any CCW qualify, and if so, can the NICS check at point of sale be waived for CCW holders in NJ by changing the Administrative Code and without changing the statute.

The article states that there are 20 states that waive NICS during firearm purchases for CCW holders. I thought that NICS was required for all firearms purchases from a dealer. Is that not true?

This is what really angers me the most about Mayors Against Illegal Guns, The Brady Campaign and all other anti-gun organizations. They never spend a dime on gun safety classes for lawful gun owners, which is where they could make a difference, if they really wanted to. But they don't give a damn about anybody. No doubt they will use this tragic story as a means to push their agenda, when they have done nothing to prevent it and, arguably, have done everything possible to create the ignorance that makes these things possible to happen. Imagine if the money used for gun buybacks would be used to provide gun safety classes. I'm not saying that all accidents would be prevented, but many could if those organizations would accept reality and work on education, rather than disarming the law-abiding.

I saw them for sale in Kmart a few days ago.

Exactly.

There is no court date for the appeal set as of yet. There are a few things that have to happen first, including filing our appeal, and submitting our brief. I would think that our next court date would be in June, the earliest.

That letter is a court document. It has the case number and the document number on the top, so it can be confirmed. If you are thinking about making multiple purchases as a C&R holder without submitting an exemption, I wouldn't do it, even if the language seems clear. You don't want to be the test case.

Okay... agree to disagree. ...and we didn't even call each other any names. Is that allowed?

Do you know where it is manufactured?

Bob, I very, very rarely disagree with you. This is one of those times. It might be the only time I've ever disagreed with you. But, here's why... The provision mentioned in the statute defines the collector, not the gun. Consider the previous exemption: Here the exemption is clearly limited to handguns for official use. The C&R exemption has no such limitation. If you are a C&R collector, as defined, with a C&R license, then you are exempt. It could say, if you are a collector of bottle caps, as defined, with a license, then you are exempt. No limitation on the type of gun. I realize that, in this state, the AG will likely try to prosecute just to see if they can get a new perversion of the law a la Adler v. Livak, or State v. Pelleteri, but it is clear to me that the law does not limit the collector's exemption to C&R guns only. ...and, just to be clear, I'm not recommending to anyone to try it without talking to a competent attorney first. ...and the only way to really find out for sure is a test case. Let's hope that OGAM goes away before that happens.

From the Superintendent's letter to Chiefs: NJSP OGAM Letter to Chiefs 119147429181.pdf page 1, 2nd paragraph. Looks to me like the person you spoke to doesn't know what he's talking about. No surprise. ...and I don't see anything that says the gun has to be a C&R. The Collector is exempt, not the gun. ...and yes, I know that doesn't mean they won't try to prosecute you anyway.

Very good. This is the same rule that was used, in part, to deny our request to see the guide. It started out as Executive Order #47. I have attached it for your reference. The proposed rules in question (which have now been adopted and are part of the Administrative Code) are on page 7 on the right hand side, numbered 1 through 7. I was one of only 6 people that submitted comments objecting to the rules. Three of the 6 came from this forum. Sadly, it made no difference. eocc47-1.pdf Our appeal has a chance of invalidating the SOP rule.

That's a great idea. I think I'll print that whole exchange and use it when we talk to legislators.

You don't need any paperwork to possess within an exemption, but, the exemptions are an affirmative defense. If arrested, you must prove that you are within one of the exemptions. You can possess an unloaded rifle or shotgun outside of the exemptions with an FPID card. You can possess a handgun outside of the exemptions with a NJ Permit to Carry a Handgun.

My left eye is twitching!

Very cool. I really enjoyed the last episode with Frank and Evan. Loved the crowd in the background.

A1398/S1584 would mandate that the NICS check be the exclusive method for determining whether or not an applicant is qualified and reduces the time allowed from 30 days to 10 days. http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2010/Bills/A1500/1398_I1.PDF

Wouldn't that be something.