Requirement of Disclosure

[Qel Hoth 33]

You confused me a lil bit, so could I legally carry a gun on my persons, while I'm driving around in my vehicle? ONLY in my vehicle, I will not get out at all, am I within the law?

 

Also should be noted, if a leo really wants to search your vehicle, "I smell marjiuana" is all the pc that is needed. If anyone is interested in protecting your personal rights, look over the link I posed. There's some good info., they're trying to sell a dvd but still some good info. on the site itself.

 

No, you are not within the law. I think we interpreted "property" differently. I think you meant it as land, where as I just meant it as something you own.

 

Either way, SCOTUS says you have an expectation of privacy in your vehicle, just that the police do not necessarily need a warrant to search it. However, they still have to be able to get a warrant for the search to be legitimate.

 

Why not just admit when asked that you have a firearm and being transported in accordance to NJ law to or from range? You are not breaking the law and there is nothing to hide. That way you can be on your way. No? Or would that mean PC to ask further questions and search your vehicle?

I understand you can either fully exercise your right or just tell the truth and intention b/c you are not breaking the law anyway and no need to complicate matters.

 

If I am not required to tell him, I'd rather he not know that there is a firearm in the car at all. With most cops they'll probably be fine with saying that there is one in the car and you are on your way to the range, but you never know if/when you are going to the the asshole.

 

An officer who asks questions like that is a good one, he's trying to find the criminals (who usually arent that bright...) and prevent them from causing harm.

 

I don't intend to sound anti-leo BLF, but any question that someone is not legally obligated to answer is a question that an officer does not have the right to have answered. I understand that traffic stops are probably the most dangerous part of an officer's job, and as such I will do everything I can to ensure the officer that I do not intend to do him any harm, however, I don't know if you're the respectful Officer BLF who knows and respects my rights, or the 1 in 1000 asshole that thinks everyone but him is a criminal and should be treated as such.

 

I don't know if you frequent officer.com, but I do recall reading a thread there in the "Ask a Cop" section, probably 8-12 months ago, where an officer responded that if he "wanted to search a vehicle he would do it, consent or not, PC or not." I agree that most of the officers are good, but there are those other ones out there.

[johnp 45]

No, you are not within the law. I think we interpreted "property" differently. I think you meant it as land, where as I just meant it as something you own.

 

Either way, SCOTUS says you have an expectation of privacy in your vehicle, just that the police do not necessarily need a warrant to search it. However, they still have to be able to get a warrant for the search to be legitimate.

 

Now I'm even more confused. By property I meant, that your vehicle is an extension of your home. You are allowed to have a firearm on your persons, while on your land.(Walking around your house, or your yard.) So if my truck is an extension of my home[my property] why wouldn't I be allowed to protect myself, truck, and family; the same way I would if I was walking around my house?

[Qel Hoth 33]

Now I'm even more confused. By property I meant, that your vehicle is an extension of your home. You are allowed to have a firearm on your persons, while on your land.(Walking around your house, or your yard.) So if my truck is an extension of my home[my property] why wouldn't I be allowed to protect myself, truck, and family; the same way I would if I was walking around my house?

 

The NJSA site seems to be down at the moment, but no, your vehicle is not an extension of your home. You cannot have a firearm on your person while in a car on public roads. You might get away with it in a motor home, but still not on public roads.

 

You do however own your vehicle, and have the right to be "secure in [your] persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

 

Vehicle falls under the "effects" portion, and as such it cannot be searched without sufficient PC for a warrant. SCOTUS has ruled that warrantless searched may be performed in some circumstanced because of the mobile nature of a car.

 

For the purposes of 4th amendment rights, your car is your "property," for purposes of firearms laws, it is not.

[johnp 45]

Ok that's what I was getting at. I have a fairly good understanding of the 4th amendment. But wasn't sure if the 4th amendment would protect you, if you were "illegally" carrying to protect your vehicle from a car-jacker. But now I know I can not.

[this_is_nascar 162]

So, what is very clear in this thread is that it's absolutely essential to understand the laws of traffic stops and what you're legally obligated to do and what's not required to do, no matter what the officer asks you. Many have chimed in with their thoughts and suggestions, but is there a document somewhere we can reference to better understand our rights for a traffic stop in NJ?

[johnp 45]

So, what is very clear in this thread is that it's absolutely essential to understand the laws of traffic stops and what you're legally obligated to do and what's not required to do, no matter what the officer asks you. Many have chimed in with their thoughts and suggestions, but is there a document somewhere we can reference to better understand our rights for a traffic stop in NJ?

 

The Bill of rights come to mind lol,j/k. Check out the link I posted, http://flexyourrights.org/, while it's not NJ specific. It's a good overview of your 4th&5th amendment rights. There's videos with acted out scenario, with law professors explaining the situation. Our rights in NJ, isn't that an oxymoron? haha

[this_is_nascar 162]

OK, thanks. I'll take a look.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I just wonder, this topic and many similar ones come up at least every month here.

 

We always get into this is the law, we define that again and again, and still people want to make up their own laws and while I am not going to get on anyone for taking extra precautions if that makes them feel better, so be it. Just please when you stat this, state it in a manner that people who my just happen to find this site or not know, that this is not that law. I seems so many people come in here, read these things and think because it was on the internet on a gun site it must be the law.

 

Also remember there is transport inside on NJ, then there is FOPA for when you are traveling thought NJ. Also there is the law, and then guidelines, you can not be changed for breaking a guideline if there is now law to back it up.

 

My last comment is, How many of you when you have been stopped really get yourself into a situation that any of these topics come up, let alone your vehicle searched, or asked to have your vehicle searched. I just know I have been driving for close to 30 years and I have never been searched, or asked to be searched. It's not like I don't drive, heck I have probably over a 500,000 miles on Harley's and old British choppers over the years. A lot more in cars and trucks. Back then I probably fit the bill for a person that would be profiled even though I have always has a job in some form of Management and responsibility from the time I was 17 years old, it was just my weekend look so to speak. Let alone I have ridden or driven in every state in the US except Alaska and never had any problems.

 

So I have to ask, what are people doing that makes them so afraid to drive within the law, transport within the law and still be afraid?? Am I missing something???

[this_is_nascar 162]

So I have to ask, what are people doing that makes them so afraid to drive within the law, transport within the law and still be afraid?? Am I missing something???

 

 

Yea, this thread kinda morphed into something a bit differently than the original question that I had asked. My question was a simple one. Are you required to disclose to an officer during a traffic stop that you have firearms with you. The simple answer was NO, you do not. That really should have been the end of this thread .

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Yea, this thread kinda morphed into something a bit differently than the original question that I had asked. My question was a simple one. Are you required to disclose to an officer during a traffic stop that you have firearms with you. The simple answer was NO, you do not. That really should have been the end of this thread .

 

Very true Ray, but we like to drag thing out, sometime good thing come out of it and we all learn something new. other times we just :thsmiley_deadhorse: ..

 

As far as the requirement, don't forget for CCW it's different when traveling around the country, I know off topic, but just for information purposes. Each state does have there rules when it come to CCW and notifications. Thats the reason I always check all the states I will travel through for there CCW laws.

 

Also as I said above, there is transport law inside of NJ, there is FOPA and there are guidelines that if there is now law to back it up are just a bunch of words.

 

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread drift..

 

This should be good for another page of posts...

[this_is_nascar 162]

Very true Ray, but we like to drag thing out, sometime good thing come out of it and we all learn something new. other times we just :thsmiley_deadhorse: ..

 

As far as the requirement, don't forget for CCW it's different when traveling around the country, I know off topic, but just for information purposes. Each state does have there rules when it come to CCW and notifications. Thats the reason I always check all the states I will travel through for there CCW laws.

 

Also as I said above, there is transport law inside of NJ, there is FOPA and there are guidelines that if there is now law to back it up are just a bunch of words.

 

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread drift..

 

This should be good for another page of posts...

 

 

 

Yea, but what about.......................................................................................................................................

[rdsmith3 19]

I don't even know where to begin. First off,lying is never a good idea. That is correct. Secondly vehicle stops are the most deadly part of an officers job so any form of evasive or ambiguous answer is gong to arouse suspicion. The pc needed to search a vehicle changes constantly as NJ is based almost solely on case law. If I m going to search a car it is limited to the grabbable area of whoever I suspect is hiding anything or is deemed a threat. Anything locked is off limits unless consent is given or I get a warrant. " I smell weed" really isn't all that valid anymore. I think I can speak for most officers when I say honesty goes a long way.

 

Are "furtive gestures" still considered probable cause for a search? Suppose I leave the range and accidentally put the range bag on the seat next to me. Then I see flashing lights behind me on the drive home. As I am pulling over, I toss the range bag into the back of my big SUV, so it is out of reach. My understanding is that my actions suggest to the LEO that I am hiding something, and could be probable cause (assuming he sees me do this).

[rdsmith3 19]

I continue to hear people, not just in this thread, but all across NJGF suggest different ways to approach questioning. For the life of me, I can't see it ending in a good way if 1) you refuse to answer an officer's question, 2) tell him you're not answering anything without a lawyer, 3) denying him the ability to search your vehicle, etc. I just cant' image any of those situations ending well for the person, I really can't.

 

I understand your perspective, and that is the way I normally am. However, we should not easily give up our rights. You never know what could happen. My analogy is my tax return. I do my taxes as honestly as possible, but my tax return is complicated. If the IRS asks me if I voluntarily agree to be audited, I would say NO. I have nothing to hide, but there is always risk in saying yes.

 

Similarly, I would not easily give up my right to not be searched. An officer might casually ask, "Is it OK if I take a look in your trunk?" I would respectfully decline. Why? First, I have a right not to be searched. Second, who knows what might turn up. Maybe the auto worker in Detroit (or wherever) dropped some pot seeds in the corner of my trunk that I never noticed before. Maybe my grocery bag from Shop Rite leaked from the steaks I bought, and there is a red stain in the trunk. I am not a criminal; I have nothing to hide; but there are so many ways that something could go wrong.

[BlueLineFish 615]

 

 

Are "furtive gestures" still considered probable cause for a search? Suppose I leave the range and accidentally put the range bag on the seat next to me. Then I see flashing lights behind me on the drive home. As I am pulling over, I toss the range bag into the back of my big SUV, so it is out of reach. My understanding is that my actions suggest to the LEO that I am hiding something, and could be probable cause (assuming he sees me do this).

 

Only for the immediate grabbable area. Not the entire auto or closed compartments. You tossing a bag in the back after I light you up will most definitely raise suspicion

[this_is_nascar 162]

I understand your perspective, and that is the way I normally am. However, we should not easily give up our rights. You never know what could happen. My analogy is my tax return. I do my taxes as honestly as possible, but my tax return is complicated. If the IRS asks me if I voluntarily agree to be audited, I would say NO. I have nothing to hide, but there is always risk in saying yes.

 

Similarly, I would not easily give up my right to not be searched. An officer might casually ask, "Is it OK if I take a look in your trunk?" I would respectfully decline. Why? First, I have a right not to be searched. Second, who knows what might turn up. Maybe the auto worker in Detroit (or wherever) dropped some pot seeds in the corner of my trunk that I never noticed before. Maybe my grocery bag from Shop Rite leaked from the steaks I bought, and there is a red stain in the trunk. I am not a criminal; I have nothing to hide; but there are so many ways that something could go wrong.

 

 

I understand certainly. It definately opens you to possible issues, either way, I guess. Like someone else siad (maybe it was Harry), how ofter are we really getting pulled over, let alone being search, anal probed, etc .

[Soju 153]

Like someone else siad (maybe it was Harry), how ofter are we really getting pulled over, let alone being search, anal probed, etc .

 

Hopefully not often, or even better, never! However we have these discussions for the unusual time that it may happen. If it happened all the time we would probably have a pretty good idea what to do and there wouldn't be much merit in discussing it! Being prepared, gaining knowledge and learning, and hearing other perspectives and things you may not have thought of before are a good thing, and kind of the entire reason internet forums exist!

[this_is_nascar 162]

I agree. I like discussing it and being better prepared if/when I'm ever faced with being pulled over and a legal firearm in the truck.