Parker

Agreed. My personal nod would go to the Ithaca M37 or the defunct Winchester M12. Both are machined steel utilizing forged parts. Nothing stamped or staked. No aluminum needed to lessen weight. The Ithaca suffers from less than desirable features and functionality in the self-maintenance & defense arena. It's not as popular as it once was. The Winchester M12 is simply too cost-prohibitive to reproduce today. (The M12 is a shotgun that can be broken down in two parts with the simple twist of the takedown lever in the magazine tube, and further dis-assembly is facilitated by a single screw in the rear of the trigger guard. How ingenious is that?) Both qualify as better made shotguns from a time that expected and demanded such. Today's Remington 870 is a good shotgun, but more a marvel of manufacturing genius to lessen costs. Its predecessor, the Model 31, was a better made gun but more expensive to produce, and never sold well compared to the shotgun it was trying to emulate, the Winchester Model 12. The Model 31 was phased out in 1949 in favor of the 870 which came on the scene in 1950. The rest is history. The 870 is a good design that works and is still economical to produce. My 1984 870 is a well-made, slick-pumping shotgun. My Ithaca's (1960 & 1968) are superb-working machines. My 1961 Winchester Model 12 is an overbuilt engineering masterpiece. I'm biased towards these, as they have both soul and character.

You may want to review the state regs. for crow. You can't hunt on any WMA's with a .22 rifle. Page 26 of the Digest spells out specifics for use of a .22 rifle and types of game allowed to be taken with such. http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/2010/dighnt21-33.pdf Crows also fall under the state and Federal migratory regs. category. Technically, you cannot hunt migratory birds with a rifle or pistol unless the state allows an exception. (I.E. New York clearly spells out the exception with use of a rifle for crow hunting. I cannot find such specificity in New Jersey's Digest.)

Some may have seen this post on another site regarding wound channels in ballistic gel and on game species with Foster slugs and buckshot. Lengthy but an interesting read. Wound profiles

Traditional Foster-style slugs would certainly offer too much penetration. Sabot slugs are true 200 yard solutions and although they may utilize heavy pistol or muzzleloader bullets, they are still launched at even higher velocities than a typical Foster slug and would not be applicable. Buckshot is probably your best solution if you are concerned about excessive penetration. #1-buck is supposed to be good for a number of situations, while #4-buck may be better suited for a home situation. Depending upon velocity and powder charge weight, a standard one-ounce payload can generate at minimum 22 ft./lbs. of free recoil energy from a seven-pound shotgun. It gets worse as velocities are boosted with heavier powder charges and increases in payloads. A 1 1/4 oz. payload in the same weight gun generates 34.65 ft./lbs. of free recoil energy. That's gonna smart at both ends. Google and read some of Dr. Martin Fackler's and others' work on wound trauma and wound ballistics. Some of Fackler's data is old, but still relevant and interesting. Scroll down in this attached link to the wound channels Dr. Fackler observed and documented with various loads. http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm How devastating are Foster-style slugs? I don't know what zombies are, but for deer I've used Foster slugs for years and they are pretty lethal within their ballistic confines. I started using the old Foster that weighed 7/8 oz. back in the early 70's and today still use the standard 1-ounce Foster or the Brenneke. Any deer I've hit broadside with any weight Foster or Brenneke slug I've never recovered. They simply whistle through. Most deer hit are DRT or they travel a few steps and expire. The closest range I've taken an anchoring shot was 15 yards, the farthest was 60 yards. Of all the deer I've shot, I've only ever recovered two fired Foster slugs. And both traveled through a lot of deer before coming to rest. I still have them. The 1 oz. Foster slug on the left is a Federal. It broke the left shoulder of a 5-pointer quartering towards me at 40 yds. back in 1979. The slug was recovered just under the skin of the right hindquarter, passing almost lengthwise through the deer. The middle Foster slug is a Winchester, taken from a 6-pointer in 1991. Shot was from a treestand angling downward as the deer was walking away from me at about 30 yds. Slug entered and broke the spine forward of the backstraps, passed through the left lung, broke a forward rib and was found just under the skin at the base of the neck. Recovered grain weights from left to right: (Left) 428.2 grs. with an expanded frontal area of .756, (Center) 417.8grs. with an expanded frontal area of .946, (Right) 439 grs.; an unfired Foster with its original diameter of .680. (Yes, I know an ounce is 437.5 grs., but this Remington Foster slug weighs 439 grs. So much for ammunition uniformity.)

My honest opinion, I would opt for a 12 ga., only because this gauge offers so much versatility. With the right loads and barrel configurations setup to handle them, you're good for anything from squirrels to bear in N.J. And anything in between. The 12 ga. is the preferred go-to gauge for any of the clays games. I don't see any recommendations for any bottom-eject pumps like the Browning BPS or Ithaca M37. Both are quality shotguns, and have gotten pricey over the years, but the bottom-eject models have fallen out of favor today for the side load/eject designs. The 870 has sold more than 10,000,000 copies, certainly the most popular. My only knock with Remington is their quality has dipped since they parted ways with DuPont years ago. Find a Remington built before the early 90's and you'll have a quality item. The other pumps that are equal and/or offer better build quality would be the Browning BPS, the Ithaca M37 and the discontinued Winchester M12. The latter two represent strength without unnecessary weight, forged all-steel designs, intricate machining and fitment; albeit all those features come at a high cost to produce. The BPS and M37 are still made today, while the Winchester was discontinued in late 1963 with almost 2,000,000 units sold. The cost to produce the M12 priced it out of the market and it could no longer compete in the age of cheap. Good luck with your decision.

Brownell's carries 15 rnd. mags. from CMI. SA as well. http://www.brownells.com/1/1/8890-m14-m1a-magazines-15-round-steel-magazine-check-mate-industries.html http://www.springfield-armory.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=22_33&zenid=gvm5l0jhi0g342rknc0stf9mb1

I'll give Ruger some credit, this is a sharp looking rifle. They should have used a more universal magazine.

Glad it was beneficial. My 12's extractors are somewhat easier to remove than a similar 20, as its springs are easier to compress and the larger extractor affords a better purchase to grab. The springs in the smaller gun are much stronger and they are a downright PITA to remove. (Keep in mind it's pretty easy to slice a finger on those sharp edges should you slip!) Kevin

I think at times we have taken "precision warfare" to levels that are unrealistic, and unfortunately it's at the U.S. taxpayers' expense. And those two words; "precision" and "warfare" simply don't go together. One has to only study history and realize that's never fully possible.

If you are talking about removal of the extractors on a 680-series, they are the same. Be mindful that some are are under heavy spring tension. I like to secure the barrel assembly in a padded vise to hold secure and then simply push the extractor inwards 1/3 to 1/2 its way until the metal on the underside of the extractor lines up with the extractor removal cut in the raceway and twist outwards and away from the breech monobloc. Be careful, they are under tension! The spring/plunger will want to come out of the monobloc once the extractor is twisted away. Some springs are stronger than others. Some recommend to use a cloth or towel placed over this to help capture the spring, otherwise you'll be searching for the spring and plunger on the other side of the room. This schematic may help understand: Extractor schematic The fellow in this video makes it look too easy:

Saw this article today: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/02/army-xm25-punisher-battlefield-test-021411w/ ‘Punisher’ gets its first battlefield tests XM25 ‘performs flawlessly’ in Afghanistan By Lance M. Bacon - Staff writer Posted : Monday Feb 14, 2011 5:33:15 EST The XM25 has changed the battlefield with only 55 rounds, and earned a new name among soldiers. They call it “the Punisher.” Since its first contact Dec. 3, the XM25 has been in nine engagements with two units at different locations, officials said. Specifically, it has disrupted two insurgent attacks on observation posts, taken out two PKM machine gun positions and destroyed four ambush sites. In one engagement, an enemy machine gunner was “so badly wounded or so freaking scared that he dropped [his] weapon” and ran, said Lt. Col. Christopher Lehner, Program Manager Individual Weapons. ‘A GAME CHANGER’ The XM-25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement System enables small units and individual soldiers to engage targets with a 25mm air-bursting capability for all operational environments. There were no casualties among units carrying the XM25 in those nine engagements, Lehner said. “No longer can the enemy shoot at American forces, then hide behind something,” said Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller of Program Executive Office Soldier. “This is a revolutionary weapon. This is a game-changer.” The XM25 has a target acquisition system that calculates range with the push of a button. The data is transferred to an electronic fuse, enabling the 25mm round to explode over the target and rain shell fragments on the enemy. All five prototypes were sent to Afghanistan in November. Officials are putting the final touches on data and analysis, but said Col. Douglas Tamilio, project manager for soldier weapons, said the weapons “performed flawlessly” and no maintenance issues showed. Soldiers have been so pleased with the XM25 that they are carrying it as a primary weapon, and not bothering to bring an M4 as a secondary weapon, said Maj. Christopher Conley, who monitored the employment of XM25 on behalf of PEO Soldier. Lehner said the tests revealed only one problem: The units didn’t want to give the Punisher back. That’s not to say there isn’t room to improve. “We’ve got to do something about the battery,” Tamilio said. “It needs a longer life.” In addition, he is convinced that the effective area range can expand from 700 to 1,000 meters. The effective range for a point target is 500 meters. There were no complaints about the 13-pound weight. “If you can give them this kind of capability, they will handle the weight,” Tamilio said. The weapons were tested by two units at separate locations. Tamilio recalled comments from one platoon leader, who said engagements that typically take 15 to 20 minutes were over in “a matter of minutes.” Officials plan to put the weapons with a third unit for the spring offensive, but officials must first determine how to cover the cost of rounds. Because they are hand built, the rounds run about $1,000 each. That cost will drop to $35 once a production line is started. The XM25, which runs about $35,000 per copy, is about to enter engineering and manufacturing development. Tamilio said efforts are underway to purchase an additional 36 weapons in 2012. The XM25 is scheduled to begin low-rate initial production in late 2013. The plan is to buy 12,500 weapons — one for each infantry squad or special forces team.

I suspect columnist Mike Kelly was kicking and screaming when he found out it was running in their Op-Ed section today. He hates all manner of guns.

Found in the Opinion page of The Record today: link: http://www.northjersey.com/news/opinions/op-ed/bullets_021111.html Opinion: Bullets: The case for 33 rounds Friday, February 11, 2011 BY STEPHEN HUNTER The Record Stephen Hunter, a former film critic for The Washington Post, is the author of “Dead Zero.” SLEEK, its lines rakishly tilted to boost the ergonomics that index grip placement to barrel, this automatic pistol has but one function: to eliminate human beings easily. That sinister intent is expressed most eloquently in the extended magazine that reaches far beneath the pistol grip, easily tripling the amount of ammunition available to the killer. It’s the Colt Super .38 automatic pistol, customized into a machine pistol by an underworld gunsmith so that Babyface Nelson could use it to kill an FBI agent outside Little Bohemia, Wis., in 1934. Maybe you saw the movie. Even if you didn’t, you can still see the point: There’s nothing really new when it comes to guns. To the contrary, the extended magazine that Jared Loughner allegedly carried in his Glock 19 the day he is accused of having fatally shot six people outside Tucson and wounding 13 others, and that President Obama is likely to suggest banning in an upcoming speech, may be traced way back. During World War I, American armorers tried to adapt the 1903 Springfield into a counter-sniper “periscope rifle” by, among other things, installing a 25-round magazine. The Germans tried to turn the Luger pistol into a “trench broom” by devising a 32-round “snail drum” magazine (it fired the same round as the Glock 19). The Texas Ranger Frank Hamer carried a Remington Model 8 with an extended magazine in his hunt for Bonnie and Clyde in 1934. The Thompson submachine gun of World War II and the M-16 of Vietnam were improved by extending their magazine from 20 to 30 rounds. In 1957, the U.S. Army adopted the M-14 rifle, which was hardly more than an M-1 Garand rifle with an extended magazine. And who wouldn’t want our soldiers, Marines and law officers to benefit from extended magazines? Guns were the software of the 19th century; the most dynamic age of development was roughly 1870 to 1900, when the modern forms were perfected. Two primary operating systems emerged for handguns: the revolver, usually holding six cartridges and manipulated by the muscle energy of the hand, and the semiautomatic, harnessing the explosively released energy of the burning powder to cock and reload itself. Design improvements Since then, design and engineering improvements have been not to lethality but to ease of maintenance and manufacture, or weight reduction. A Glock is “better” than a Luger because you don’t need a doctorate’s degree to take it apart, nor a fleet of machinists to produce the myriad pins, levers, springs and chunks of steel that make it go bang. Moreover, you can lose a Glock in a flood and find it six months later in the mud, and it still will shoot perfectly, while the Luger would have become a nice paperweight. What nobody has been able to improve on since the 1870s is the cartridge. It is an extraordinary mechanism that safely stores volatile chemical energy until needed. It is cheap to manufacture, easy to transport and largely impervious to the elements. What’s often lost amid activists’ carping is that the effect of the notorious extended magazine does little to improve the pistol’s lethality except in extraordinary circumstances, such as Tucson. Neither Seung-Hui Cho, the Virginia Tech mass murderer, nor the alleged Fort Hood killer used extended magazines in their rampages. America’s first gun mass murder, when Howard Unruh killed 13 people in 1949, was committed with a Luger. In fact, the extended magazine actually vitiates the pistol’s usefulness as a weapon for most needs, legitimate or illegitimate. The magazine destroys the pistol’s essence; it is no longer concealable. Loughner allegedly wrapped the clumsy package in a coat for a short distance, but he could not have worn it in a belt or concealed it for an extended period. It had really ceased to be a pistol. That’s why extended magazines are rarely featured in crime — and that awkwardness spells out the magazine’s primary legitimate usage. It may have some utility for competitive shooting by cutting down on reloading time, or for tactical police officers on raids, but for those who are not hard-core gun folks it’s an ideal solution for home defense, which is probably why hundreds of thousands of Glocks have been sold in this country. Particularly in rural Arizona, given the upsurge in border violence, it’s likely that residents feel the need to defend themselves against drug predators, coyote gunmen or others. Yes, they can use semiautomatic rifles and shotguns, protected by the Second Amendment and unlikely to be banned by local law, but women generally don’t care to put in the training needed to master them. Nor can the elderly handle them adeptly. Weapon of maximum utility For them, the Glock with a 33-round magazine is the weapon of maximum utility. You can load it on Sunday and shoot it all month. (Nobody wants to reload a gun while being shot at.) It’s light and easy to control. You don’t have to carry it or conceal it; it’s under the bed or in the drawer until needed. When the question arises of who needs an extended magazine, the answer is: the most defenseless of the defenseless. Those who would ban extended magazines will say that although hundreds of thousands are in circulation and thousands more will surely be sold before a ban is enacted, it will be worth it if it saves just one life. But the other half of that question must be asked, too: Is it worth it if it costs just one life?

Definitely go with a 20 ga. Your son can grow into the gun as opposed to growing out of it. There's nothing wrong with a .410, I just think the 20 ga. is better. A 20 ga. is perfect to boost confidence at the early stages as it helps gain anyone's interest when they are doing well. Some .410's can be a frustrating experience for a beginner shooter. If you reload shotshells, you can make light 3/4 oz. reloads @ 1050FPS-1100FPS that are easy on young shoulders yet still offer enough shot to make consistent hits on clays at most ranges. .410 & 28 ga. shells will always be more expensive. And they are not offered in as many loads or varieties as the others. Standard payloads in a 20 ga. normally run from 7/8 oz. to 1 1/8 oz. in 2 3/4" shells. And up to 1 1/4 oz. in 3" shells. I started out my three with a 20 ga. with a short stock, using light 3/4 oz. reloads, and they were breaking clays confidently after a couple of sessions; and enjoying themselves!

I used to reload Brenneke's years ago when they sold the slugs separately for reloaders. I haven't found a source that carries them anymore and I've lost interest in it over the years. Here are two online sources for components for slug reloading. BP offers a manual as well for their components: * http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Slugs-and-Components/products/71/ * http://slugsrus.com/store/handload.html There is a good forum on ShotgunWorld where all they discuss are slugs, sabots, slug guns, and reloads. Good source of information here. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewforum.php?f=118&sid=9aab4fe07e2ea88c48a629ccecd5390f

A Lee as Glenn noted or even a MEC. If mounted first to a small board, you can then clamp it to a sturdy table and that will suffice as a stable platform. You don't need that much room. While not geared for production, this video of one chap's method of reloading shotgun slugs always gives me a chuckle when I see how unsophisticated the reloading process can really be. (I won't comment on any safety issues here either.) Worth nine minutes of your viewing time:

Close to 3% of the population hunted in New Jersey 30 years ago. Today we have more people in the state yet significantly less that hunt. Hunting & fishing license sales last year were roughly a third of what they peaked at in 1990.

Let's hope that silent majority (hunters) are smart enough to see through this charade. The NJOA produced an article this week noting that 5% of the U.S. population still hunts. It should be noted that less than 1% of New Jerseyan's hunt today. The latter number is somewhat sobering.

I'm sure there is an interesting story behind this origin of this revolver. (I guess Ransom didn't make a set of inserts big enough to accommodate this for their rest?)

My 870SF 12ga. makes for a nice short brush gun for pheasant & grouse. Used to serve as my backup gun for prolonged out-of-state trips too. I still use it occasionally, but prefer my 16's & 20's for bird hunting.

Thanks Axeman_g. I like my Setter. Along with my Remington 870SF he makes for an effective combo on pheasants.

Well said. In the early 60's I used to attend live pigeon shoots on weekends with my Dad, less than three miles away from our home in northern Bergen County. (Yes, Bergen County, New Jersey.) That land today is now an industrial complex adjacent to a reservoir that wasn't there at the time. Live pigeon shoots are unheard of anymore except in Pennsylvania, where they are regarded with abject disdain from activists. The gun and hunting culture that once existed in New Jersey is no more, and it took less than a half century for this phenomenon to occur. Times and attitudes have changed.

For anyone interested in shotgun sports like any of the clays games, subscribe to Shotgun Life's daily newsletter. On a daily basis you will receive to your email inbox brief but informative updates running the gamut of anything related to clay target shooting, clay target shotguns, target presentations, gun fit, action types, various shotguns, various shooting styles, etc. Here's the link: http://www.shotgunlife.com/signup.html'>http://www.shotgunlife.com/signup.html The entire website is a good resource for anyone wanting to hone their skills and/or learn more. And there is something for everybody here. http://www.shotgunlife.com/

If you go to Thunder Mountain without a shotgun, and ask Ruth or Bob for a "loaner" gun to shoot with, they will probably hand you an appropriate 1100, be it for skeet, trap, Thunder Clays, or on the practice/beginner field on the end. All their loaner guns are 1100's. There is nothing wrong with an 1100/1187. They just need to be routinely cleaned because they are gas operated. And you don't need a shell catcher. You stand far enough away from anyone that empties don't take their toll and simply tell the target puller you'd like to pick up your empties at the end of the session. Most people do anyway who reload. Remington field guns are stocked with a generic size in the hopes of "one size fits all." So, the stock profile is designed to fit a myriad of folks. Their target-grade guns (I.E. 1100 Skeet, 1100 Trap, 1187 Sporting Clays, etc.) are stocked slightly different. European guns have a better stock fit than some American shotguns. Proper stock fit distributes recoil better too, besides aligning your eye properly with the rib & bead. Some explanations of achieving proper shotgun fit: https://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=353780 http://www.stockfitting.com/

I agree with Axeman. Remington built the 870's reputation on the original Wingmaster. These actions and their internal finish are significantly slicker than an Express model, if those particulars appeal to you. While the Express is a cheapened version, it's still a solid gun by nature of its design. I've used an 870 Spec. Field since '84 and today it can practically cycle itself it's so smooth. I hunt with it still and shoot skeet with it on weekends during the summer at Thunder Mtn. It is truly slick. History of the 870 and various models: http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/journals/870/?na=5 For slug gun and target shooters who demand more precision, I would recommend the 870 Competition Sear Spring replacement to lighten that horrible trigger. (It's the same factory spring found in their target guns.) It will lower the pull weight to a nice 3.5lbs. It's a two-minute job to replace the original. Of course, use discretion if you want to swap it in your self-defense shotgun. I can't find the part on Remington's site, but Midway sells it: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=815333