NJ's unreasonable CCW is a de facto violation of our rights

[BCeagle 12]

If it wasnt so important, I would file the suits myself but I am paranoid about screwing it up. I wonder if NJ had to face a rash of lawsuits on the matter and was forced to defend each one if they would give in a little. I think someone should fight 1 gun a month as soon as the incorporation issue is decided. I wish I had a large staff of volunteers solely devoted to doing something in NJ.

 

What's your legal strategy? Which court (state or federal) were you planning on filing in? What's the issue, and what is the legal basis for challenging it?

 

Remember that Jersey City had at least four attorneys representing the city pro bono in the case where the city's one gun per month ordinance was challenged. You'll be fighting just as many, if not more if you plan on challenging the one gun a month statute.

 

If you plan on filing in federal court, keep in mind you need an actual controversy, not a hypothetical one. That means you have to show how you were actually harmed by existing legislation, AND that that legislation is either contradictory to existing federal law (and argue supremacy) or that it is a violation of your Constitutinal rights.

 

The Supreme Court in the Heller case still recognized the authority of states to pass "reasonable restrictions." You would have to demonstrate that any restrictions you face are "unreasonable."

 

Realistically, you will require the services of an attorney experienced in federal court proceedings as well as Constitutional issues. Then figure out a way to pay for him.

 

I would go Federal because I have no faith in the NJ Court System, plus I like the rules of civil procedure better since the judges don't have as much leeway. Getting the case and controversy wont be an issue, assuming incorporation happens, I go apply for 2 handgun permits and try and buy matching western pistols or something like that. The whole issue becomes reasonable restrictions which is why I like the idea of matching pistols, why should I be denied something so innocent.

 

I would be a good candidate for CCW, no record, attorney, carry large amounts of cash or diamonds at times, even had a few threats a long time ago. I just wouldn't want to waste the time applying for the permit then getting denied.

 

As for the pro bono, I would prefer that, I can write better then most attorneys, but the research part would kill me, I would need 3-4 good law students to donate their time. The State AG would represent the state and they have all the money in the world.

[KpdPipes 388]

BC, it doesnt work that way, in order to go federal, you first have to work your way through the State system up to the State Supreme Court. THEN yoiu can petition to the Federal Courts for relief I believe. Can't just jump-start it into the US court of appeals.

[Dewhitewolf 8]

I would go Federal because I have no faith in the NJ Court System, plus I like the rules of civil procedure better since the judges don't have as much leeway. Getting the case and controversy wont be an issue, assuming incorporation happens, I go apply for 2 handgun permits and try and buy matching western pistols or something like that. The whole issue becomes reasonable restrictions which is why I like the idea of matching pistols, why should I be denied something so innocent.

 

I would be a good candidate for CCW, no record, attorney, carry large amounts of cash or diamonds at times, even had a few threats a long time ago. I just wouldn't want to waste the time applying for the permit then getting denied.

 

As for the pro bono, I would prefer that, I can write better then most attorneys, but the research part would kill me, I would need 3-4 good law students to donate their time. The State AG would represent the state and they have all the money in the world.

 

1. The phenomenon you are describing is known as "forum shopping," and prohibited by court rules. A circuit court (federal appeals court) can only hear cases on appeal; you cannot simply file directly in circuit court. District courts (federal trial courts) cannot take cases involving the validity or interpretation of state law.

 

2. We have yet to see what incorporation will and will not do, even if the Supreme Court applies it to the Second Amendment. The Court will not send out directives to micro manage the states, telling them that their laws conflict with the Court's ruling. Such an activity would be an advisory opinion, prohibited by Article III. Each law that conflicted would then have to be challenged in the court system to determine the extent and applicability of incorporation.

 

3. Obtaining matching pistols does not demonstrate an "unreasonable restriction." The dealer can order two matching pistols, and hold one for an extra month. This is not a compelling argument in any court.

 

4. In order to argue an actual controversy, you would have to "waste your time" and "get denied" for a CCW. You can't go to court to argue that the process would hypothetically deny you.

 

5. If you are an attorney, you ought to know all this. You should be explaining this to us.

 

6. If you are transporting large amounts of cash or diamonds on a regular basis, that can meet the "justifiable need" requirement for a restricted NJ carry permit.

 

7. Everyone believes they have superior writing skills. Regardless, you must still submit all court briefs in accordance with that particular court's rules of procedure. As I understand it, there are law firms that specialize in assisting other lawyers with preparing briefs and evidence for all federal courts to ensure compliance.

[BCeagle 12]

I always thought that if you could show a federal question or a violation of a federal/constitutional right you could begin in federal court. I know Roe v. Wade started in District Court. Admittedly the only times I have been in federal court were based on diversity of citizenship. Hence the whole reason I would never file it myself, I would hate to screw up and screw everyone else up.

 

 

Dewhitewolf, you should be an attorney you present things better then most guys I see in Hudson County.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Ummm, your best bet is challenging the AWB as an unreasonable restriction. Have someone (who doesn't own any firearms at all) take possession of a 17 round Glock-17 magazine. Proceed to have them arrested.

 

This situation warrants an unreasonable restriction on two counts:

 

1. Possession of a magazine and no firearm is not a reasonable threat to the good of society. The fact it comes with a 5 year jail sentence further makes this restriction seem laughable.

 

2. Possession of a magazine which holds 2 more cartridges than the considered legal limit. Why is 2 more rounds all of a sudden more lethal than 15? How is this a reasonable restriction?

 

Then, you can expand the lawsuit/whatever to include bayonet lugs and flash hiders. What is reasonable about their restriction.

 

Fight the AWB, and you solve a lot of problems for NJ gun owners. Honestly, I'd rather have that P.O.S. legislation repealed than having the right to have CCW.

[BCeagle 12]

I would hope that we could get them all repealed. I agree I would prefer to have the AWB removed, since I probably wouldnt carry and I dont but more then one gun a month anyway. I would think it would be which ever is easiest.

 

But, who wants to risk being arrested, unless you had an 80yo grandpa that was willing to take one for the team. Maybe someone about to plead guilty to something serious and is our on bail, so the sentences would run concurrently?

[quikz 34]

It is easy for most folks in NJ who are obviously brain-washed by the far left to become far-left in their ways even though compared to the national scene, we are truly, FUBAR WACKED OUT left wingers in this state. This to me is sad and dangerous because it essentially mandates a one party only system/heirarchy and is unbalanced, to say the least.

 

Secondly, I believe this creates a discriminatory situation for gun-rights advocates whereby they are painted as some kinda "right-wing radical" or worse. Which to me compounds plenty of the APATHY by the gun owning residents of NJ, who would otherwise be hardcore for example, if they lived in Texas. So yes, many gun owners who should stand up, but dont, are in fact, "pussies" in NJ.

 

But I'd like to say goto: http://www.familywatchdog.us/ or the NJ State PoPo's website: http://www.njsp.org/info/reg_sexoffend.html

 

Then, realize that we have no ctrl over who moves in or out of our neighborhoods. We cannot harass the sex offenders etc., it is unlawful to do so. :roll:

 

So now, when you have 20 living within a mile from your house? Makes gun ctrl nuts (or a realtor) look silly now don't it?

 

You are at work, wife at home with kids and they call you at work to tell you they would like to walk to a local park. What do you do? Remember, no CCW in NJ.

 

You are grocery shopping w/ the kids in a upper class area. But it just happens to be bordering a slum neighborhood filled with dirtbags (not uncommon in NJ). What do you do? At night, loading food into your car? Or if it's just your wife and kids, since you are at home watching the game? As far as I know, most sex offenders possess two legs and can walk or even take the bus.

 

Your wife owns a small retail store that sells lottery tickets, cigarettes and candy. There are alot of people who go thru her store on a daily basis. It's Friday night 10:00pm. She collects the receipts from the busy day and is preparing to close the store. You are on a fishing trip with your buddies on a boat and having a few beers about 15 miles out to sea from Avalon.

 

Think it's all getting better?

 

Add you own scenario here:_____________________________________________

 

Point is, I never knew there were so many scumbags near me whom I know and have seen for sure and have crossed paths with just going about my business. So chances are, you or someone you know have too.

 

Also, remember, while cops try to protect you and serve as a great deterrent. The reality is: they are even greater historians after the fact, at a serious crime scene.

 

Remember, these are just "Registered Sex Offenders", NOT thieves, bank robbers, arsonists, etc...

 

Check your zip code or address today. Will put a chill down you spine.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I would hope that we could get them all repealed. I agree I would prefer to have the AWB removed, since I probably wouldnt carry and I dont but more then one gun a month anyway. I would think it would be which ever is easiest.

 

But, who wants to risk being arrested, unless you had an 80yo grandpa that was willing to take one for the team. Maybe someone about to plead guilty to something serious and is our on bail, so the sentences would run concurrently?

 

Actually, that's a great idea. That would further show how unreasonable the NJ AWB is. What court would give an 80yo grandfather a 5 year jail sentence for possessing a magazine over the 15 round limit?

[BCeagle 12]

 

You are grocery shopping w/ the kids in a upper class area. But it just happens to be bordering a slum neighborhood filled with dirtbags (not uncommon in NJ). What do you do? At night, loading food into your car? Or if it's just your wife and kids, since you are at home watching the game? As far as I know, most sex offenders possess two legs and can walk or even take the bus.

 

Not only is it common, it is pretty much forced upon us by the State and Mt Laurel decisions, we have lost all control as citizens and our state is a one party joke. The only way to get change is to organize and fight back. Meetings, volunteer for pro-gun candidates, we also need to organize in inner cities not just white suburbia. I have been trying to get as many people to get their license and but a gun as possible, so they feel they have a stake in this. If people dont think it effects them, they dont care.

 

We have a small group here that are interested in this, we need numbers.

[Al1969 2]

Not only is it common, it is pretty much forced upon us by the State and Mt Laurel decisions, we have lost all control as citizens and our state is a one party joke. The only way to get change is to organize and fight back. Meetings, volunteer for pro-gun candidates, we also need to organize in inner cities not just white suburbia. I have been trying to get as many people to get their license and but a gun as possible, so they feel they have a stake in this. If people dont think it effects them, they dont care.

 

We have a small group here that are interested in this, we need numbers

 

I'm on board, when and where do we meet!

[Karatenurse 11]

I live in central Jersey, and would love to find a group that gets together and can organize to fight for our rights. But I also do not want to have to join a gun club that charges some sort of massive dues. Pleanty of ranges that already charge high annual dues. I do belong to the NRA along with my wife, and we always try to donate what we can to the NRA-ILA too. But it would be nice to be able to get together with like minded citizens and disscuss how to get our voices heard as a larger group.

[BCeagle 12]

Its not a bad idea, you would like to have as many people as possible but I cant see us getting more then 20, so it would be semi social and could be at a home. Hopefully it grows from there.

[1911Fan 1]

I wonder how many NRA members live here in Jersey and if they would have any might if they collectively asked the NRA to take up the issue again?

 

I have sent over 6 emails to the NRA asking them to take up some issues here in NJ.

They responded after email 6 by telling me that since our state constitution does not guarantee the right to keep and bear arms (guns are illegal but they make exceptions so we can own the little we can) that they have no argument in court. If the SCOTUS incorporates the 2A, the NRA can help us - otherwise, we are on our own unless we vote out the anti-gunners in the legislation.

They did say they were very sorry they can't help out in our state due to the political corruption of anti-gunners from NJ.

[BCeagle 12]

Its a abad image for the state if they come rigt out and talk about the political corruption, but its true.

 

We could always try and get pro gun people elected in areas that voted for one gun a month. I'll try and put up a list next week esp those that voted for it in republican areas.

[Dewhitewolf 8]

I live in central Jersey, and would love to find a group that gets together and can organize to fight for our rights. But I also do not want to have to join a gun club that charges some sort of massive dues. Pleanty of ranges that already charge high annual dues. I do belong to the NRA along with my wife, and we always try to donate what we can to the NRA-ILA too. But it would be nice to be able to get together with like minded citizens and disscuss how to get our voices heard as a larger group.

 

Two such groups are the Association of NJ Rifle and Pistol Clubs (www.njcsd.org). Both of these groups fight to change existing legislation and try to get gun owners to actively support pro gun initiatives and organize events. Both have moderate dues.

[GoNRA 12]

New Jersey Constitution Article I, [1.]

 

All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain natural and unalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and of pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.

 

anyone show that article to the anjrpc?

[BCeagle 12]

defending life and liberty, of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and of pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.

 

 

Pretty obviously an endorsement of the right to bare and use arms. I wonder why no one has tried it.

[ianargent 7]

Because the NJ SC sucks. And since it'd have to be an appeal under the NJ Constitution, you couldn't appeal a negative ruling outside the state.

 

Remember, this is the same court that won't enforce the CLEAR legislative time limit of 30-day shall-issue for FID and pistol purchase permit, and allowed Lautenberg to be swapped in after the deadline.

[BCeagle 12]

I just thought of the Lutenberg issue when I was reading your post and you nailed it. That was so illegal it was disgusting. I cant wait to make enough money to leave this craphole state.