New Comparison - Handgun "Stopping Power"

[deni 16]

 

In a way. Remember that scissors>paper>rock>scissors>paper>rock. It's a continuing cycle.

 

mind=blown

[SoCalTrojanSoldier 10]

There are so many factors in what will and wont work in each situation, a "new" criminal may be scared off with just the sound of a .22 let alone getting hit, a criminal that may have been in fire fights before or on drugs may not be stopped by any sound and may not feel pain at their time of attack. At which point killing or physically disabling may be the only option. I believe a persons best option is whatever they can accurately and securely trust themselves to handle. If you can shoot someones eye out or hit vital parts like the throat at 7 yards with a .22 but shots are all over the place with another caliber then the .22 is right for you. Maybe even going with a .22 magnum to get better penetration, bottom line a .22 is better then nothing, but if you can move up to a .38 revolver or something bigger do it.

I have never been in a gun fight.. but I have been jumped/attacked.... the notion that you will be shooting someone over 20ft away might be reasonable in the home.. you hear a break in.. you go look.. someone rushes you.. you shoot.. sure.. but on the street.. an attacker is probably going to be in your face before you even know it is happening.. pointing a gun right at your chest.. or holding a knife at you.. hitting someone "in the throat" or "in a vital area" is IMO a poor defensive strategy... which is why the biggest caliber you can handle is the best... you want to make the biggest most nasty hole you can make.. in the largest area that houses the most goodies (center mass).. yeah.. there are a ton of nice blood pathways in the under arm area.. and a simple knife thrust there would be enough to stop most.. placing a hit there in the middle of an altercation.. kind of tough... you need to be able to control an attacker with one hand while drawing with another.. you need to be able to draw while on your back.. it would likely be a fight for your life in which physical conditioning and awareness will be JUST as important as your gun skills.. if you are weak.. and poorly trained.. expect to lose your own gun in the struggle.. and end up getting shot.. this is not the wild west in which you will have a 20 pace fair gun fight.. drawing your weapon will likely be a last resort right as the situation is occurring.. the first class we had when I started to learn knife fighting... the instructor said this class is not about winning a knife fight like you see in the movies.. you will likely get stabbed anyway.. you will likely be hurt.. winning.. is simply being able to live another day after being attacked.. and that really put it into perspective for me.. criminals on the street in a lot of cases don't care about jail.. or dying... so they are going to bring it to you in a life or death type attack..and when it happens.. it will likely be in your face...

 

Both of you guys have great points. Great discussion.

 

I'd like to know the distance the shootings occurred in the article. The author basically came to the conclusion that hitting the target was of utmost importance. The way I see it, the farther the distance the hits go down. ( I would add that the more stress a person experiences the more the hits go down also). I would venture to guess that most LEO encounters occur at a longer distance than an average citizen being victimized on the street.

 

Hunkering down in a home you may have some distance with which to fight, but maybe not if an attack occurs at the front door after you answer a knock. At very close range I would think that a larger caliber weapon would generally provide better stopping power while a smaller caliber (9mm ball for example) would probably completely penetrate with less damage if a non lethal shot occurs. Alot of people generally carry something that is more concealable and thus a smaller caliber weapon. Also consider that we live in the northeast where heavy coats or leather coats may slow down a larger slower moving caliber causing less penetration and thus less "stopping power".

 

It's hard to find the ideal caliber for all situations. Would you carry (if you could) a different weapon in the winter than you would during the summer? Would you rather have more rounds with less "stopping power" or less rounds with more "stopping power"?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Both of you guys have great points. Great discussion.

 

I'd like to know the distance the shootings occurred in the article. The author basically came to the conclusion that hitting the target was of utmost importance. The way I see it, the farther the distance the hits go down. ( I would add that the more stress a person experiences the more the hits go down also). I would venture to guess that most LEO encounters occur at a longer distance than an average citizen being victimized on the street.

 

Hunkering down in a home you may have some distance with which to fight, but maybe not if an attack occurs at the front door after you answer a knock. At very close range I would think that a larger caliber weapon would generally provide better stopping power while a smaller caliber (9mm ball for example) would probably completely penetrate with less damage if a non lethal shot occurs. Alot of people generally carry something that is more concealable and thus a smaller caliber weapon. Also consider that we live in the northeast where heavy coats or leather coats may slow down a larger slower moving caliber causing less penetration and thus less "stopping power".

 

It's hard to find the ideal caliber for all situations. Would you carry (if you could) a different weapon in the winter than you would during the summer? Would you rather have more rounds with less "stopping power" or less rounds with more "stopping power"?

 

I carry a 40 caliber glock..

I carry as far to the side as opposed to the back as I can so I can still draw while on my back..

 

I would think that similar to a knife encounter being able to draw and shoot with one hand is a very useful skill considering you might be grabbing with the other hand..

 

distance is unlikely for a citizen being attacked on the street.. no one is going to draw a knife or a gun on you 30 feet away and then walk towards you.. they are going to stick it in your face.. use fear and aggression to try to control you.. and you will likely have a split second to react..i have no idea how I would react.. with that much fear running through my body.. ideally you avoid places where situations like that can even occur.. and when you are in places like that you stay as aware as you possibly can.. if it went to a struggle I would have no reservation about sticking the gun point blank and firing.. at least that way you minimize the chance of a miss..

 

the truth is you have NO idea how it will go down till it does.. but what I am sure of.. is it will not be some showdown cowboy style and you better be ready to fight for your life.. be on top of your game.. and be as physically fit as you can be..

 

the "best caliber" is the one that causes the most trauma.. that you can reliably use.. in a round designed to over penetrate the least.. IMO of course..

[GunByte 2]

As someone who loves statistics I find fault with using different number of shootings for each caliber. Extreme example would be one shooting with .22lr resulting in immediate death versus 2 in .45 that allowed the person shot to run away. Both results happen in real life so I think we need a much larger number of cases studied before any conclusions can be made.

 

I am one of those that believes most people being shot will cease the activity they are doing. The first time I saw a civilian shot was in front of an Italian social club. The guy, a big guy, was shot in the stomach with a .22. He immediately clutched his stomach and doubled over and had to be helped to the steps of a nearby church where he died. In Vietnam I saw guys shot with .45s and .223s keep coming after multiple hits. Yet I did not conclude that the .22 is a better stopper.

 

In a defensive round you want adequate penetration to reach vital areas and as big a bullet as you can handle accurately at speed. Large bullets give you more surface area and therefore allow you more wiggle room in accuracy as where the .22 may just miss by a hair, the .45 will not. I watched an episode of COPS today where a guy reported someone shot him with a .22 and it bounced off him due to his thick clothes and size. He was asked if he was shot before and he said yes but only by a 9mm which did not have much of an effect on this 300 lb. guy. I think that this goes to show that you need to be prepared for the worse if you can. I carry a .45 when I can but most often carry a .380 or 9mm due to their small size and weight.

[KpdPipes 388]

Both of you guys have great points. Great discussion.

 

I'd like to know the distance the shootings occurred in the article. The author basically came to the conclusion that hitting the target was of utmost importance. The way I see it, the farther the distance the hits go down. ( I would add that the more stress a person experiences the more the hits go down also). I would venture to guess that most LEO encounters occur at a longer distance than an average citizen being victimized on the street.

 

Hunkering down in a home you may have some distance with which to fight, but maybe not if an attack occurs at the front door after you answer a knock. At very close range I would think that a larger caliber weapon would generally provide better stopping power while a smaller caliber (9mm ball for example) would probably completely penetrate with less damage if a non lethal shot occurs. Alot of people generally carry something that is more concealable and thus a smaller caliber weapon. Also consider that we live in the northeast where heavy coats or leather coats may slow down a larger slower moving caliber causing less penetration and thus less "stopping power".

 

It's hard to find the ideal caliber for all situations. Would you carry (if you could) a different weapon in the winter than you would during the summer? Would you rather have more rounds with less "stopping power" or less rounds with more "stopping power"?

it's been a while but i BELIEVE, that it worked out to an average of 3-5 rounds under 7 yards in under 5 seconds for the majority of Police Shootings.

[KpdPipes 388]

As someone who loves statistics I find fault with using different number of shootings for each caliber. Extreme example would be one shooting with .22lr resulting in immediate death versus 2 in .45 that allowed the person shot to run away. Both results happen in real life so I think we need a much larger number of cases studied before any conclusions can be made.

 

I am one of those that believes most people being shot will cease the activity they are doing. The first time I saw a civilian shot was in front of an Italian social club. The guy, a big guy, was shot in the stomach with a .22. He immediately clutched his stomach and doubled over and had to be helped to the steps of a nearby church where he died. In Vietnam I saw guys shot with .45s and .223s keep coming after multiple hits. Yet I did not conclude that the .22 is a better stopper.

 

In a defensive round you want adequate penetration to reach vital areas and as big a bullet as you can handle accurately at speed. Large bullets give you more surface area and therefore allow you more wiggle room in accuracy as where the .22 may just miss by a hair, the .45 will not. I watched an episode of COPS today where a guy reported someone shot him with a .22 and it bounced off him due to his thick clothes and size. He was asked if he was shot before and he said yes but only by a 9mm which did not have much of an effect on this 300 lb. guy. I think that this goes to show that you need to be prepared for the worse if you can. I carry a .45 when I can but most often carry a .380 or 9mm due to their small size and weight.

in the end, it all comes down to Shot placement, and round construction... a well-constructed .380 (Say a Hornady Critical Defense) will be MORE effective than a ball round from what may normally be considered a "Better" caliber. There is a reason we (Police and Military0 are taught to shoot for center-mass... In a high stress situation, your fine motor skills are one of the first things to go..Center-mass is the biggest target, the fact that it ALSO houses the majority of the organs, as well as access to the spine is just a plus.