Kevlarburrito 0 Posted March 4, 2012 Hello everyone! My first post on these forums. I've been lurking on and off for a few years. Finally decided to make an account and start posting. I hope you all can help me out with a few questions I have. I've been in the Army since 2005, I spent just over 4 years on active duty with the field artillery out of Fort Sill. During that time I was deployed in Iraq for just under 3 years. While I was in Iraq, I purchased a David Pedersoli 2nd Model Land Pattern Brown Bess. The company I purchased it through, Dixie Gun Works, had it shipped directly to my mother's house here in New Jersey. Since then I've moved back here and I am now looking to start shooting it. I have a question that I need some assistance with. I've come to understand that these types of weapons are no longer considered firearms in New Jersey, or the United States for that matter. As such, an FPID is NOT required to own one in the state of New Jersey. Nor is it required to purchase such a weapon in the state. Can someone confirm this? EDIT: Just to clarify, I got my information from the ATF and Dixie Gun Works. Thanks in advance! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pizza Bob 1,488 Posted March 4, 2012 I find it real hard to believe that a company the size of Dixie Gun Works would ship a gun directly to an address in NJ. Second, I don't know where you got your info, but functional muzzleloaders are treated just like regular firearms in NJ. An FPID is required to purchase (in state) and travel outside of the exemptions. I'm no historian, but paper-patched bullets came a long time after the Brown Bess era. More Civil war time period. Revolutionary period muzzleloaders were usually patched round ball, but that may not apply to the Brown Bess since IIRC, there were smooth bore muskets. Somebody more versed in BP may be able to help you out here. And finally, usually FFG is used in the barrel (with something as large as your musket FG might even be recommended) and FFFG in the pan for better ignition. Thank you for your service. Adios, Pizza Bob ETA: I may have misunderstood. I believe that paper cartridges may have been used with the BB. Just a cylinder formed of paper filled with powder with a ball on top. Entire assembly stuffef down the barrel to speed loading. Guess the paper helped provide the gas seal as well as speeding loading. Smooth bores relied on volume of fire, not accuracy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted March 4, 2012 Welcome to the Forum.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevlarburrito 0 Posted March 4, 2012 Thanks for the response. Just to clarify, I got my information from the ATF and Dixie Gun Works. I'll edit the initial post to include that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevlarburrito 0 Posted March 4, 2012 The information I received said that antique firearms or replicas thereof of weapons produced BEFORE 1898 and which DO NOT use fixed ammunition (i.e. brass cartridges) are not considered a "firearm" by modern laws. I'm not sure if the law has changed or not. But that's what I was told. I just want to make sure I'm doing everything correctly. Edit: This is from Dixie Gun Works: What restrictions apply to shipping muzzleloading firearms? Muzzleloaders, by virtue of the fact that they do not fire fixed ammunition, are considered antique firearms under The Gun Control Act of 1968 and are not restricted in trade by any federal law or regulation. This applies to both antique and new made muzzleloaders. There may be state or local ordinances which restrict our ability to ship direct to the customer. Residents of HI, NJ, MA and MI are urged to check their state and local laws for any restrictions on ordering black powder firearms. Dixie's black powder cartridge guns can only be shipped to a federally licensed dealer. In order to ship to the dealer, we must have a signed copy of the dealer's Federal Firearms License on file. If you are interested in ordering an FFL gun you should make arrangements with a local dealer to take delivery. This is a common practice and the dealer will usually charge only a nominal fee to complete the transfer. Now at the time, I was stationed and living in Oklahoma. My home record address was back in New Jersey, so to my knowledge it was purchased legally. There were no issues in the musket arriving at the house through the mail. One would assume the New Jersey police would screen such shipments when they arrive in the state, or that it would, at the very least get reported. I have never had anyone approach me about it though. So, I figured I would ask around. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pizza Bob 1,488 Posted March 4, 2012 Start with Post #12... http://njgunforums.c...__fromsearch__1 As I said in the original thread, it is really splitting hairs and a very gray area. As with a lot of NJ firearms laws, it comes down to, do you want to be the test case? Best to err on the side of caution. It appears from your amended quote, that even Dixie isn't sure how to interpret NJ law and they put the onus on the purchaser. You can't unring the bell. What is done is done. You may want to get your FPID for the transport aspect. Adios, Pizza Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevlarburrito 0 Posted March 4, 2012 Thanks Bob, would you recommend I go talk to the local police or maybe someone at the local courthouse and see what they say? It's been my experience around here that the local police are a bit inept when it comes to laws, believing things that aren't illegal to be incredibly illegal or not understanding the laws entirely but then we've had a lot of new policemen enter the force here so that could be the explanation behind it. EDIT: Just read your linked post. Wow, you weren't kidding about the grey area...I guess it couldn't hurt to ask. I'm currently in the middle of trying to get an FPID. I'm having a problem with it though because I was diagnosed with PTSD, I'm not seeing a counselor for it but the police need a doctors note for...but no doctor will give me a note without having seen me on a regular basis.....but I don't need to see anyone on a regular basis.....quite a catch 22 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pizza Bob 1,488 Posted March 4, 2012 KB: Do not, repeat NOT, ask the police or someone at the courthouse about firearms law. Absolutely the worst source for information. In this particular instance, as I said, what is done, is done - let sleeping dogs lie. In the future, again, as I said, best to err on the side of caution. Sorry to hear about your Catch 22. Can't you get free counseling from the VA - whether you feel you need it or not - if it's free and a means to an end (getting your FPID) why not avail yourself of it? May not help, but couldn't hurt. Good luck and welcome to the board. Adios, Pizza Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevlarburrito 0 Posted March 4, 2012 Yeah I can get counseling for service connected issues. The problem with that is that I have to drive to, quite literally, 2 separate hospitals at opposite sides of the state. Very in convenient, time consuming, and...to be honest...there comes a point with combat stress and PTSD that you reach where you are just sick of talking about it and it's better to not talk about it. Some people, myself included, get like that...others find that it helps to talk. I would rather not think about it. I know one of the local detectives and I spoke to him just a little while ago. He said New Jersey does recognize flintlocks as firearms, but, because it's an antique and I purchased it in another state I do not need an FPID. He did also say that it would not hurt to have one, just in case. So, I'm going to talk to the officer in charge of the FPIDs tomorrow morning and see what he says. The officer I spoke to today said that the circumstances are such that it doesn't seem like there would be an issue with it. The cops here aren't overly aggressive asshats if you talk to them like human beings. It's when you instigate and act like a dick that they get angry. That's been my experience in dealing with them. Plus the fact that I'm a veteran, definitely helps when speaking to them since a few of the older officers are veterans themselves. I'll let you guys know what I found out. But I appreciate your insight! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
halbautomatisch 60 Posted March 5, 2012 As Bob said, DO NOT bring up that the musket may have been shipped directly to you with the cops - it's not legal to ship any muzzle loaders, air guns or antique guns directly to you in NJ. In almost every other state it is legal, but not NJ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites