Using Heavier Bullets: Did you notice a difference?

[GRIZ 3,369]

12-14lbs spring in a 45. 10-12lb in a 40, 7-9lbs in a 9mm are reasonable spring weights that will not beat up your gun

 

why would the fit of the slide, barrel, frame have anything to do with the sights returning to poa?  If the recoil spring is to heavy the front sight dips, if it is to light, it hangs high.  Same with the weight of the slide.  

 

Do you still drive a model T?

 

I'm guessing you have not been to a steel match... how about USPSA?

 

14# recoil spring is about what Browning specified for the 45ACP 1911.  So you're saying to go to a standard spring not a lighter one.  Browning didn't specify a weight he specified "music wire .042 in diameter with 32.75 coils".  If you compare those specs witha Wolff 14# spring it amounts to about 14.5# compressed with coils touching and 13.75# installed in the gun.  I have no idea who decided a 16# spring is standard so I can't comment on that.

 

Looks to me like you are just bringing the 1911 back to Browning's spec.  Kind of like reinventing the wheel.

 

Wolff lists 14# for 9mm and 19# for 40 so I'd say your recommendations are pretty light and leave it at that.

 

Those who think heavier springs will permit them to shoot hot loads are another story I'd be willing to discuss at a different time.

 

You apparently are unaware that the fit of the slide and barrel to the frame (and other parts) have everything to do with accuracy therefore POA.  If the fit is sloppy the barrel, where the bullet comes from, will not return to the same postion in relation to the slide, where the sights are.  This is the difference between a $400 and $4000 1911.

 

I did drive a Model T once but don't normally.  Your attempt at insults is noted but I am more mature and will not respond in kind.  I've been shooting for over 45 years and have over 35 years as an instructor with handguns to 8" howitzers and nearly everything else in between.  Because I have more experience doesn't make me stupid.

 

I used to shoot PPC and IPSC starting in the 70s and found a serious conflict between those disciplines and the hundreds of hours of tactical training I received as a LEO and in the military.  Shooting without using cover and reloading in the open will get you killed in a real gunfight.  Your threats don't always come from the 180 degrees in front of you.  You don't use a pimped out handgun with some skeleton holster in gunfights.  Now any type of shooting is good at developing skills and if you compete in steel plate and USPSA matches good for you.  However, remember these are games and don't think doing so is making you an expert combat shooter.  Jeff Cooper said marksmanship is only about 5% of gunfighting,  Jim Cirillo used to say to his classes of new students,  "I'll teach you how to shoot a good qualification score and once we get that out of the way I'll teach you how to shoot to stay alive.  More on this in a minute.  

 

    

 

A lighter spring helps a faster return to sight picture because a good grip supinates the forearms, which moves your musculature out of a neutral position and makes it act like a spring resisting muzzle rise. For a lot of people a good grip is not necessarily resistant to muzzle dip. A light spring slams the slide into battery with less force, thus decreasing the propensity for the muzzle to dip. The springy supination part is bio mechanical, and not really a conscious act. That makes it essentially instantaneous. Recovering from muzzle dip is conscious execution of fine motor skills and thus takes some time. Choosing a spring rate that returns the muzzle to a natural point of aim is faster even if the muzzle wants to rise more.

 

There's a misconception that lighter springs cycle faster. They don't. They just make the reward motion the faster part of the cycling motion. The other one is that there's a universal optimal spring weight. For 2011s people usually claim it is 14 or 13 recoil, 17 main. I tried it on mine with a light slide, and it left me with muzzle climb (I.e. it'd be back in battery before my grip had snapped back to a natural point of aim) 15/17 works well though.

 

raz-0 thank you for your detailed and accurate explanation.  It is easier to discuss something with someone who appears to know what they are talking about. 

 

I always found it works to advise people to strengthen their grip to address the issue of muzzle dip and it always has worked for people that did this.  I imagine for some who grew up using cheat codes with their video games the craving for instant success would convince them to pursue any edge possible.  This is what one does in a game and a lot of "game" shooters insist on the softest primers to go with their 4 lb revolver trigger pulls  and such.  Nothing wrong with that usually but they sometimes need to remind themselves that they are games.

[2Alpha 6]

14# recoil spring is about what Browning specified for the 45ACP 1911.  So you're saying to go to a standard spring not a lighter one.  Browning didn't specify a weight he specified "music wire .042 in diameter with 32.75 coils".  If you compare those specs witha Wolff 14# spring it amounts to about 14.5# compressed with coils touching and 13.75# installed in the gun.  I have no idea who decided a 16# spring is standard so I can't comment on that.

 

Looks to me like you are just bringing the 1911 back to Browning's spec.  Kind of like reinventing the wheel.

 

Wolff lists 14# for 9mm and 19# for 40 so I'd say your recommendations are pretty light and leave it at that.

 

Those who think heavier springs will permit them to shoot hot loads are another story I'd be willing to discuss at a different time.

 

You apparently are unaware that the fit of the slide and barrel to the frame (and other parts) have everything to do with accuracy therefore POA.  If the fit is sloppy the barrel, where the bullet comes from, will not return to the same postion in relation to the slide, where the sights are.  This is the difference between a $400 and $4000 1911.

 

I did drive a Model T once but don't normally.  Your attempt at insults is noted but I am more mature and will not respond in kind.  I've been shooting for over 45 years and have over 35 years as an instructor with handguns to 8" howitzers and nearly everything else in between.  Because I have more experience doesn't make me stupid.

 

I used to shoot PPC and IPSC starting in the 70s and found a serious conflict between those disciplines and the hundreds of hours of tactical training I received as a LEO and in the military.  Shooting without using cover and reloading in the open will get you killed in a real gunfight.  Your threats don't always come from the 180 degrees in front of you.  You don't use a pimped out handgun with some skeleton holster in gunfights.  Now any type of shooting is good at developing skills and if you compete in steel plate and USPSA matches good for you.  However, remember these are games and don't think doing so is making you an expert combat shooter.  Jeff Cooper said marksmanship is only about 5% of gunfighting,  Jim Cirillo used to say to his classes of new students,  "I'll teach you how to shoot a good qualification score and once we get that out of the way I'll teach you how to shoot to stay alive.  More on this in a minute.  

 

    

 

 

 

POA is point of aim, nothing to do with mechanical accuracy of the gun

 

IPSC will get you killed... awesome.  Can we discuss tactical beards next?

[zoid 24]

 

Looks to me like you are just bringing the 1911 back to Browning's spec.  Kind of like reinventing the wheel.

 

Wolff lists 14# for 9mm and 19# for 40 so I'd say your recommendations are pretty light and leave it at that.

 

Those who think heavier springs will permit them to shoot hot loads are another story I'd be willing to discuss at a different time.

 

You apparently are unaware that the fit of the slide and barrel to the frame (and other parts) have everything to do with accuracy therefore POA.  If the fit is sloppy the barrel, where the bullet comes from, will not return to the same postion in relation to the slide, where the sights are.  This is the difference between a $400 and $4000 1911.

 

 

I don't think anyone is arguing what you're saying is wrong.  I'm sure it's accurate information.  I think the question here is

the applicability.  To some people having a $4000 tolerance on their bushing to barrel fit will matter.  To guys like me who

shoot USPSA/Steel it doesn't.  Doesn't matter to me if the gun I shoot does a 1 1/4" group at 25yds or 2".  Because I know

I"ll never shoot 1 1/4" under a time stage at 25 yards.  I never bench shoot and I don't do bullseye so it's not applicable.  

Doesn't mean I don't want an accurate gun.  Just means I don't think a couple thou of an inch tighter tolerance is even 

worth talking about.  But that's just me. 

 

As to the recoil spring almost every single competitive shooter is running a modified spring to suite their load, gun, etc.   I run

a slightly lighter one in my Kimber since I load light.  I think you're dismissing the practical application of doing so.  I'm not

trying to argue anything about the POA, accuracy, etc.  I'm sure many people know way more about that.  I'm just saying 

there is a reason just about every competitive shooter experimenting with different reloads is doing it.  In reality and application

it has proven to increase performance.  

[Brian B 2]

Back on topic,

 

I prefer 124s over 147s for nine. I also prefer 165s over 180s or 200s in .40. I also prefer 200s over 230s for .45. (185s if I could get them to reliably feed)

 

This is just my preference as I like a snappier feeling gun instead of a slower feeling one. With either heavy or light bullets, I can not pull the trigger any faster. The gun does seem to cycle slower, to me, with the heavier bullets. That is just my perception of it though.

 

The 45 255s that someone introduced me to were really slow cycling and did slow down the splits that I could shoot! They were the only heads that actually made a difference and were too heavy for me. You can watch them all the way to the target though.

 

Brian

[zoid 24]

Back on topic,

 

I prefer 124s over 147s for nine. I also prefer 165s over 180s or 200s in .40. I also prefer 200s over 230s for .45. (185s if I could get them to reliably feed)

 

This is just my preference as I like a snappier feeling gun instead of a slower feeling one. With either heavy or light bullets, I can not pull the trigger any faster. The gun does seem to cycle slower, to me, with the heavier bullets. That is just my perception of it though.

 

The 45 255s that someone introduced me to were really slow cycling and did slow down the splits that I could shoot! They were the only heads that actually made a difference and were too heavy for me. You can watch them all the way to the target though.

 

Brian

 

Yeah I will not do 250s again.  And 230s appear to kick a little harder than I would prefer.  I don't know what it is but the 200s have this sweet spot where they

are soft in recoil and they feel "quick".  It could all be in my head, but I have found 200s to be the best so far.  My only concern is I'm not making power factor

for major and I don't have a chrono.  

[Brian B 2]

Get a chrono!

 

It is nice to know whether you are where you need to be or not. I use a prochrono, for 100 bucks it is right on with the match chronos.

[zoid 24]

Get a chrono!

 

It is nice to know whether you are where you need to be or not. I use a prochrono, for 100 bucks it is right on with the match chronos.

 

I didn't know they were so affordable.  Hmm good to know.  I will look into that.  Thanks!

[GRIZ 3,369]

POA is point of aim, nothing to do with mechanical accuracy of the gun

 

IPSC will get you killed... awesome.  Can we discuss tactical beards next?

 

You apparently can't carry on a discussion without trying to be insulting. 

 

You win on tactical beards though a subject I know nothing about.