High Exposure

The average combat load for current conventional US Rifleman is between 75-100 lbs, including armor, helmet, radio, IFAK, ~210 rounds and an 8lb M4. This does not include a grenadiers additional load out or any mission specific equipment. If i remember correctly, In WW2 it was ~ 50 lbs incuding a 10.5 lb rifle (US Rifle Cal. .30 M1) and 184 rounds of .30-06. I wouldn't call our current warfighters wimpy by any means. I agree, especially when you look at the relationship between how much a weapon has to weigh to properly attenuate the effects of the heavier recoil of the larger rounds, and all the weapon handling differences that relates to - including limited ammo carrying capacity.

Actually, you would be surprised how many ineligible people come in for permits/FID, or have references that say that they shouldn't own a firearm.

Then friggin leave!

2753 184 40 Never forget those that died; Never forgive those that killed them. 1 of ours is too many. All of theirs is not enough.

Woodentoe, you are 100% right brother. IA is a necessary evil. No matter how hard we try, the LEO population is still drawn from the general public. The same cross section of humanity become cops as anything else. We get shitty cops just like there are shitty priests, teachers, politicians, electricians and moms. There needs to be a way to balance everything, and it actually requires the better LEOs in your agency if you want it done right. I have a buddy that was an NYPD IA guy for a bit in the 80's. The stories he told me of cops he locked up, man, did those guys ever deserve it. They were NOT my brothers, and good riddance.

Raz-0 Sorry, I did not mean to imply that YOU should do anything. Kind of a "Royal" you was intended with my ramblings. My apologies brother. Personally, I am fine with the system the way it is. ETA: As a Semi-regular steel shooter allow me to say Thank You for all the work you do so I can blast some steel every now and then.

Well, if you are going to do it, how about a "Tactical" division? Duty Grade pistol, weapon mounted light, at least a level 2 holster (Safariland ALS/SLA) on a thigh-rig

So, who do you propose should "oversee" the worlds largest police department?

I think they should leave it the way it is. My friends and I shoot the static steel comps regularly with duty guns, production full power ammo, and level III duty holsters (Safariland ALS/SLS) and we do fairly well. (1.5-2 seconds from beep to first hit is acceptable from a level III holster in my book, some of us can get it down around 1.25 sometimes) We know we won't beat J.J. and the like but it is fun to compete with them. The big draw for us is to have fun and to try and shoot better than we did last time. Hell, I know its not pistol, but I took first in "carbine open" in the big match last June and had never shot that class before.

The video is what it is. It is a recording of a specific moment in time from a specific location. There is no frame of reference. We don't know haw long into the incident this occured, what the people in the videos mindset was, what verbal commands were or were not given. I mostly wanted to show that the Officer wasn't simply "Bumped" as reported by the video. He had an unknown suspect run into him, while he had another suspect at gunpoint. I can't tell but it almost looks like he ran right into his pistol. Woodentoe you are 100% correct, you are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else. When I said I didn't want an opinion, I was answering your statement "I assume you want an opinion". I did not mean to imply that your opinion didn't matter or that you were not entitled to one. My posts were not in solicitation of an opinion on this matter. I apologize if it came off that way. Mea Culpa. When I stated that I wasnt there and was not going to speculate, I meant that I am not going to speculate if it was an ND, an AD, or a purposefully fired shot at someone deemed an immediate threat to the Officer's life. As far as the victim being a "threat", Yes, I believe that the young man that tragically lost his life was an unidentified suspect and should be treated accordingly by the Officer on scene. bhunted, you may want to check your sarcasm meter. I believe the battery is dead. Yes, I saw what you wrote in parenthesis. It did not come off as a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain. It came off as a statement of your belief that it is in fact difficult to have an ND or AD with a 12lb trigger. So if that was simply sarcasm, then you do believe it is possible to have an ND with a 12lb trigger?

Not turning the victim into a perp, just pointing out that the victim was a suspect. A suspect that appeared to jump at an Officer that already had another suspect at gunpont. I am not 100% sure, but from the reaction and location that the officer chose to post, it appears as if he may be the first Officer on scene and is unsure of the location of the robbery/barricade. I don't want an opinion. I want people to stop passing judgement on what occured based on a media account and a short B&W video with no frame of reference and no audio. I am going to answer that last query the way I wish a lot of folks would have when talking about this: I was not there, and even if I was I am not the officer involved. Ergo, I don't know what happened, why it happened or how it happened and I won't speculate. He shot an unknown and aggressive threat/suspect that turned out to be an innocent victim. Cops aren't issued crystal balls with their gunbelts.

Here is a Link to a video of the shooting. Scroll to 0:40. http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-26345346/security-video-nyc-police-shooting-30534326.html?_esi=1#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-26345346%252Fsecurity-video-nyc-police-shooting-30534326.html

That's interesting... Personally, I blame the assholes that decided to threaten a man and his employee at closing time with a gun (Reports state that the perps were armed with an unloaded .32ACP pistol) and try to take what he has worked for. As far as a lack of training: Click Here http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/39696-lack-of-training-for-police-departments/ for a little insight. Are you referring to the shooting at the Empire State Building? Those to guys had a 60% hit ratio. Way above the reported average in a violent encounter (including LEO and CCW shootings), with all of their hits in the perp's chest. That's pretty damned good for real world, off the square range shooting at moving meat as opposed to stationary paper or steel that don't shoot back. Really? Tell us about all the experience you have with duty guns with 12 pound triggers. Better yet, tell us about the time you carried a gun with a 12lb trigger, on duty, during a hostage job, and were tackled by a suspect fleeing the site. Where do you get the idea that the officer was the recipient of a simple bump? The always truthful and accurate media's report? What is that supposed to mean? Most cops do the Job out of a sense of duty to their community, a desire to help their fellow citizens. Most that put the uniform on put the public's safety way above their own, running to the sound of gunfire to try to save the lives of others. 100% Agreed. 2 men come running out of a store where armed gunmen have taken hostages. One comes out with his hand up over his head running for the cops. Chasing him is another person, hands unseen, about the right age for the perp. Second individual doesn't does not respond to verbal commands, doesn't put his hands up and doesnt stop. Is he making a break for it? Is he chasing the other guy down to kill him? All involved persons, hostages and perps, are suspects until positively identified. Being a suspect makes him an unknown and that makes him a threat. Unfortunately this falls under the heading of being smart around people with guns. And as usual, people will rake the cop through the coals based on the accuracy (or lack thereof) of a media report and a 6 month investigation of his split-second decision. You are right, details do matter, so please keep in mind that everyone is basing their sequence of events on a media report. The same media that we get pissed at because they always get it wrong when reporting stories we are interested in. I do agree that this needs to be fully investigated and that the perps are ultimately responsible for the young man's death. This is tragic all around.

These are some pretty entertaining books. The gun geek in me smiles as I read them. I just downloaded book 4 in the Monster Hunter series, "Monster Hunter Legion" from Baen EBooks tonight. I will start it in the morning when I get home from work. Only $6.00 and readable in Kindle and iBooks format (I think Nook too). I am eagerly awaitng the next "Dead Six" novel. http://www.baenebooks.com/ they have a pretty good free section there too if you are into Sci-FI/Fantasy.

Qualification is not training. Case law (specifically Popow vs Margate) mandates that realistic training be conducted by all Officers. Qualification is a test that you pass or fail and certifies you to carry a firearm in as an Officer meeting the requirements of the NJ Police Training Commission. The Qualification in NJ incorporates strong and support hand firing, different positions (kneeling/squatting and standing) from 1-25 yards. Training must be done in addition to the qualification and must incorporate realistic elements ie: low light, movement, multiple targets, shoot/no-shoot targets, different positions etc... That being said, no training you can conduct will ever prepare anyone for the speed at which a gunfight (or any violent encounter for that matter) will occur. Your comments seem as if you believe that the rounds fired at targets on the range are going to be EXACTLY like what it will be like when they are getting shot at and you are shooting someone. This is dangerous thinking. This one in particular was fast, close, and brutal. These 2 cops are Studs in my book. 2 Officers, who have never shot their weapons while on patrol before, shot 7 and 9 rounds respectively with 10 rounds in the bad guys chest. That is pretty damned good. Was it perfect? No, but such things rarely are, outside of luck. Regardless, they got it done and farily well with a 60% hit ratio and rapid incapicitation of the perp and all witnesses hit were hit with frag and riccochets, not aimed shots. IN spite of all the craziness going on around them, all of their bodies fight or flight reactions gonig on inside them, these 2 guys made sure to not hit any person except their target with direct fire. That is a WIN in my book. We can not completely eliminate the risk of civilian casualties in a gun fight. All we can do is fight and win. This is an instance that literally falls under the heading of "That's life in the big city". As an aside, civilians might want to remain aware of their surroundings and when they observe LEOs with guns drawn and shouting commands. They might consider moving and getting behind cover instead of milling around like a herd of gawking sheep trying to catch it on their cell phone's camera. As I saw the video - Perp is walking among the masses dressed in a suit and carrying a brief case. Cops are on the wall. You see construction workers running behind perp, one informs cops of the shooting. Cops close in. Cops begin to split up, getting different angles - good tactics. Perp looks over his shoulder then turns, gun pointed at cops at his hip level. Closet cop is about 4 feet away. The 2nd Cop is maybe 8 to 10 feet away. There is no cover with the exception of a large flower pot that if the closet cop tried to use he would be shot in the top of the head. Cops open fire and perp falls. There are many people on the street. It looked like the cops were going to grab him and he turned, gun in hand. So, jackdawack, imagine you are a cop, on a crowded street, approaching a suspected gunman that just reportedly shot someone in the face with a pistol. You are 4 feet away and he turns and points a pistol at you. Now what? You should eat the bullet from the bad guy because you MAY hit an innocent? How about this... there are people around the suspect that may be hit by your gunfire, there are also people around you that would be hit by the suspect's imminent gunfire. Now what do you do? Hands sweaty, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, time dilation, forget all that, just make a decision RIGHT NOW: 2 choices 1) Put effective rounds downrange or 2)Let your family greive your death and let the perp get away to possibly shoot god knows who else. Tell me jackdawack, what would you do? Better yet, tell us how much better you actually did do that one time when you engaged a man with a gun at near bad breath distance, with hundreds of people out and about. Bottom Line - Cops very seldom shoot anyone. In fact, cops don't shoot a 100th of the people they legally could and Should according to agency guidelines. NYPD has more cops than they can train past a minimum standard, yet they seem to do pretty well. Should they receive more training? Sure, just don't confuse a desire for more training with being under-trained. Training costs money. Are you going to pay for it and walk their beat while they are at the range that day? I keep on wondering how people with no experience as a cop know everything about what a cop does. While the 12lb trigger is not ideal, it is completely workable. Guys like Jim Cirillo and Bill Jordan did a whole lot of good work with a K frame S&W, which by modern standards would have a horrible 12lb trigger, with "a really long reset". Like anything else it is about proficiency. If you are mandated a 12lb trigger you simply practice with a 12lb trigger. Additionally, at the distances this particular gunfight happened, I seriously doubt it would have made a difference. SpecOpsScout excellent post. Thank you! I agree, and this dove-tails well with Specopsscout's post above. There are plenty of cops on "Blue Welfare". Probably about half will actively try to get out of work and dodge calls. Maybe 30% will do work, but not go looking for it. They get a call, they will respond, do what is expected and that is about it. The other 20% they are the warriors/hunters whatever you want to call it. They do the lion's share of the work fighting crime. They dig and investigate. They make life hell for the bad guys, and they put the bag on every shift and go looking to make a good arrest. They seek out ways to do their jobs better and work on their faults while honing their skills. This goes hand in hand with training. Most guys wont go to any training unless forced, a lot of guys believe that if they need to know it, the agency will provide it, a few seek it out on their own and try to pass the knowledge on to like minded co-workers. Look at fellow employess in your own line of work/business etc.. you will probaly see the same cross section of hard workers and do-nothings. ETA: Response to BLF excellent posts

Understood Ray, and that's just my take on the situation based on my own unique interaction with endusers at the really sharp end of the spear, as well as my own needs and experiences carrying a gun for a living. I truly believe that proper and extensive training of all end users in gunfighting (vs qualifying), preventative maintenance, and the difference between good quality gear vs garbage would make the perceived need for an new issued rifle dissappear. Shane's response below is 100% correct in my opinion. I will also reiterate that the M16 Family of Weapons (including 7.62x51 varieties) is a very reliable platform, as long as you start with quality gear and follow the proscribed PM tables, use qualtiy mags, ammo, and lube. In fact, I will go as far as saying in my experience, and from 1st hand evidence I have heard, the modern M16 FoW is far superior to any other platform out there, especially the M14. I know that is blasphemy to some, so be it. As far as "knockdown power" that is a subjective quality as nothing you can hold in two hands is capable of reliably stopping a threat in one shot, let alone knocking it down. Shot placement as well as the ability to make quick follow up shots is the key to rapid incapicitation. The .308 absolutely has greater range than the 5.56 and is arguably more lethal past 300 yards. However I have heard from reputable sources that the M14s in service in theater are inaccurate, tend to lose zero, have terrible ergonomics/ineffecient manual of arms, and flat out suck when used in CQB/CQC. I know of at least 1 US Army Sniper school trained soldier and a few DMs that would take their M4s with quality optics over thier issued M14s on patrol in Afghanistan. Their quote about the M14 was along the lines of "It is a peice of shit boat anchor". A 7.65x51 AR platform is far superior to the M14. BLF I agree, Not only is fitness important, but it is actually possible to go too light with a rifle. To the point where even though it is less fatiguing to carry, it becomes more fatiguing to shoot and control recoil. However, a 7lb M4 is much handier, easier to drive traget to target, has better recoil control by design (straight to the shoulder vs. through the wrist to the shoulder like an M14 or Shotgun with a standard stock) and ammo selection than an M14, 870, US Rifle .30 cal M1 etc... As far as not carrying it around for hours on end, I had to clear a large structure the other morning all jocked up in armor and carrying an M4. It was hot, fatiguing, stressful, and that long gun got damned heavy. Fighting with any gun is fatiguing, why make it worse by carrying a 12lb wood and steel beast when you dont have to?

I have 4 DD Omega rails, Three 7" and one 9". They are outstanding products and they hold zero very well with both lasers and optics. I have been unable to get the tube to affect my zero no matter what I hang on the rails, how hard I yank on the sling, or how rough I use cover. In the past, when not using a FF fore-end I have been able to induce up to a 4 MOA deviation from my zero by puling on on my sling or placing the rail/tube on a barricade and pushing. IMO the best part about them is they are so easy to install and are still free floating. No cutting off the delta ring or removing the FSP. For people that are issued rifles and are forbidden to make any permanent modifications to the weapon they are a Godsend. It also makes installation of a FF Rail system for anyone in NJ with the pinned comp and a standard FSP cheaper and easier.

Ray Ray, BLUF - M16 family of weapons has worked well for almost 50 years now and has killed more people than AIDS and Cancer combined. I think you have heard a lot of anecdotal evidence about the M4/AR-15 family of weapons that just flat out isn't true. The fact is a quality M4 (Noveske, BCM, Colt, LMT) built the the Mil-Spec TDP or greater with quality magazines, components/accessories and ammo is a different story than the AR built in the garage with parts bought at the local gunshot bins and outfitted with the latest and greatest from the Cheaper Than Dirt catalog. The M4 with proper maintenance at all levels is extremely reliable and has been for some time. Keep in mind that anything created by man can and will fail. When talking about firearms it is hard to pinpoint the cause: Bad product off the assembly line, improper use of the weapon or use outside of its spec'd limitations, bad QC/QA with ammo, bad magazines, the 'parts is parts' mentality of the WECSOG franken-gun builders, improper or no preventative maintenance, bad gauge from so-called subject matter experts, and my favorite - myths that have become larger than life and are now accepted as gospel truth even though they are patently false. Look at what the SF guys in most countries are carrying as a primary issued assault weapon. Yup, that's right, it's generally an M4 class weapon - slowly moving to a piston driven 416 type M4. While I have no problem with the DI, I am digging the way the Piston market is moving with the AR and SCAR variants. That being said, at this stage I still don't trust it as much as a DI M4 platform. I have seen quite a few of them fail firsthand and the maintenance at the level I am capable of is expensive and limited. When talking about the ammo and "stopping power" you are going to need to define that phrase a little better for me. Are we talking the ability to stop an assailant/enemy with less shots? If that is what you are looking for then that is more a function of shot placement than caliber until you get silly and start advocating .50 BMG weapons for HD, line troops, and cops. If you are talking about bigger bullets for the sake of bigger bullets, then you have to accept the weight penalty and reduced load out that accompanies it, as well as costs and supply/logistics problems. Modern soft-nose bonded 5.56x45 in the 60-75gr range out of a 1 in 8 or 1 in 7 barrel is lethal round that is good enough for most of us. A lot of people all over this world have been put into the ground because of the 5.56x45 round. So, to answer your question, a USGI M4 with an Aimoint RDS and 3x, white light, quality mags and slings, Slip 2000 EWL, enough spare parts to follow the preventative maintenance schedule, and training training training in marksmanship, mindset, manipulations, and diagnostics/maintenance to go with it.

Is this a static or knockdown match?

Ray Ray, These are stock cylinder bore Mossberg barrels that have been reprofiled, back bored, and had the forcing cone extended. They are safe for slugs and shot. I have one for a Rem 870. With any ammo I feed it, it consistantly shoots a pattern at 25 yards that I can cover with the palm of my hand and 00 buck will leave a slug size hole under 10 yards. It makes all buck shot patterns tighter than Flight Control type rounds. The sale includes a barrel, stainless steel mag follower and a jumbo Mossberg safety. These barrels are simply amazing. Trust me.

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Barrel length has more to do with velocity and range than it does with accuracy. I regularly shoot a 11.5" Colt R0933, and I am just as accurate with that as I am with a 14.5" M4 or my 16" mid length AR, at distances appropriate for the short barrel. The extra barrel length allows the projectile to build more velocity before leaving the muzzle, increasing lethality at greater distances, and giving the projectile longer range. The longer barrel also allows you to have a rifle length gas system, which is arguably more reliable than the carbine length gas system found on most 14.5-16" ARs or the mid-length gas system that is becoming more popular for its subjectively softer recoil.

Psssst..... Look up four posts

I agree. I took the MRDS off of my ACOG and installed it on my shotgun. Ray, I don't have pics, but it is a chin weld instead of a cheek weld. You basically have to slide your cheek up from a normal mount to see through the mini RDS mounted above the ACOG. It also increases your mechanical offset at CQB distances drastically.

Ah, I forgot, Woodbridge PD carries Speer 230grain Gold Dot Hollow Points for their duty load in an HK USP .45