UT and FL CCW class May 22, 2011

[GAPP 11]

GAPP has another CCW class coming up. This one will be held at Fort Dix Range 14 on May 22, 2011. Florida and Utah are the most sought after permits in the nation because they are the most widely recognized... and with the recent law change in Philadelphia, the UT permit has become a lot more valuable for those traveling to the city of brotherly love. We provide all services necessary to get a concealed carry permit in both UT and FL including the applications, envelopes, passport photos, finger prints, notary seal, and UT CFP instructor seal. We also help you fill in the application so it wont be returned for being completed improperly. For a full course description, registration information, and other class dates, go to www.gappnj.com.

[Babaganoosh 192]

bookmarked

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

... and with the recent law change in Philadelphia, the UT permit has become a lot more valuable for those traveling to the city of brotherly love.

 

 

??????????????????????

 

I'm not sure I know what you mean by the above statement. The recent change in Philadelphia gun laws is that city council passed a law that says they won't recognize any non-resident permit. The original version of that law only applied to PA residents carrying on a non-resident permit from states such as FL or UT, but, as I understand it, the version that passed applies to anyone carrying on a permit from a state other than their state of residence.

 

Now this law is not worth the paper it is written on because PA has pre-emption, and the law is technically illegal and unenforceable. However, that does not mean that they won't arrest you under that law, which may entail a large outlay of money to fight it in court. You may have to appeal it to get out of the city courts before the charge would be dismissed. To me, concealed means concealed and Philly be damned, it is legal under PA law, but people should be aware that the possibility exists.

 

Which brings me back to my point: What makes the UT permit more valuable in Philadelphia than any other permit/license that has PA reciprocity? Philadelphia recognizes none of them.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[GAPP 11]

Yes you are correct about the law not holding any water in the courts... but it will take someone with deep pockets to appeal and defeat it. But take a look at the law again... subsection 3a

 

"in addition to the persons categorized in

subsection (2)(a), the following persons shall not be prohibited from carrying a firearm

upon the public streets or public property:

(a) a person licensed to carry a firearm or to hunt by a state with firearms

laws similar to the firearms laws of Pennsylvania, and which provides a reciprocal

privilege for individuals licensed by Pennsylvania. For purposes of this subsection (a),

only the following states are deemed to have firearms laws similar to those of

Pennsylvania: Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota and Utah."

 

So as I read the law (but I am no lawyer), the Utah permit is valid in Phili

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Yes you are correct about the law not holding any water in the courts... but it will take someone with deep pockets to appeal and defeat it. But take a look at the law again... subsection 3a

 

"in addition to the persons categorized in

subsection (2)(a), the following persons shall not be prohibited from carrying a firearm

upon the public streets or public property:

(a) a person licensed to carry a firearm or to hunt by a state with firearms

laws similar to the firearms laws of Pennsylvania, and which provides a reciprocal

privilege for individuals licensed by Pennsylvania. For purposes of this subsection (a),

only the following states are deemed to have firearms laws similar to those of

Pennsylvania: Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota and Utah."

 

So as I read the law (but I am no lawyer), the Utah permit is valid in Phili

 

 

I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Ooh good point.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Yes you are correct about the law not holding any water in the courts... but it will take someone with deep pockets to appeal and defeat it. But take a look at the law again... subsection 3a

 

"in addition to the persons categorized in

subsection (2)(a), the following persons shall not be prohibited from carrying a firearm

upon the public streets or public property:

(a) a person licensed to carry a firearm or to hunt by a state with firearms

laws similar to the firearms laws of Pennsylvania, and which provides a reciprocal

privilege for individuals licensed by Pennsylvania. For purposes of this subsection (a),

only the following states are deemed to have firearms laws similar to those of

Pennsylvania: Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota and Utah."

 

So as I read the law (but I am no lawyer), the Utah permit is valid in Phili

 

 

Cameron:

 

IANAL either, but I did a bit more research on the text of the statute and the verbiage just prior to your actual quote is very telling, it says:

 

(3) In the event that a court of competent jurisdiction determines, in a final Order from which no further appeal is available, that persons with licenses from states other than those set forth in subsection (2)(a) have a statutory right to carry a firearm upon the public streets or public property, then, in addition to the persons categorized in subsection (2)(a), the following persons shall not be prohibited from carrying a firearm upon the public streets or public property:

(a) a person licensed to carry a firearm or to hunt by a state with firearms laws similar to the firearms laws of Pennsylvania, and which provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed by Pennsylvania. For purposes of this subsection (a), only the following states are deemed to have firearms laws similar to those of Pennsylvania: Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota and Utah.

As I read that, the legality of carrying on a permit from your named states hinges on a "court of competent jurisdiction" finding that persons with licenses from states other than those named in (2)(a) - which would be PA residents carrying on a PA license and residents of states other than PA carrying on their states license, providing there is reciprocity with PA - have a right to carry also, but then goes right back into pre-emption territory by claiming Philadelphia only recognizes reciprocity with the named states.

If this statute is reviewed by a "court of competent jurisdiction" the entire statute will be thrown out as violating pre-emption and the named states clause becomes moot.

Maybe I am misinterpreting because "legalese" is not always easy to understand. I am not trying to be argumentative, but I'd hate to see someone get into a "jackpot" after thinking themselves covered, based on incorrect advice.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Dan 177]

Looks to me to be an illegal Philly code entered in that violates PA's pre-emption as stated by Bob, no doubt about that. I do slightly agree that in this situation having a Utah non-res should fair better at passing the "court of competent jurisdiction" test.. according to the rules they set forth in the code. It's all a moot point as PA state would destroy this code as it goes against state laws, and is beyond what a city or municipality has the authority to do.

 

 

They are looking to discourage Non-resident permit holders from carrying in Philly, bottom line.

 

(a) either (.1) a resident of Pennsylvania licensed by a political

 

subdivision of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to carry a firearm or licensed to hunt;

 

or (.2) a resident of another state, which state has a reciprocity agreement with

 

Pennsylvania under 18 Pa. C.S.§ 6109(k) or has statutory reciprocity under § 6106(b),

 

and is licensed by such state to carry a firearm or to hunt;

 

This little gem is designed to prevent non-resident permit holders from recognized states (including the named Utah) from carrying in Phili by dictating only "residents" of states the PA AG creates reciprocity agreements with under 18 Pa. C.S.§ 6109(k).

 

The bogus code then goes on with the next clause, saying something about a court of "competent jurisdiction" has to determine if someone other than a resident of reciprocal states as listed above (aka non-residents) might be permitted to carry Philly. They then go on to list those states as "Pennsylvania: Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota and Utah." They do not mention here "resident of", so I take this as explicitly there to say that Philly will only maybe tolerate non-resident permits from these 7 states. In effect, they are saying they will arrest you if you are relying on a non-res, and you will have to go through the justice system and have a court/judge give the A-OK to you using your non-resident permit for carrying in Philly under this code. This is a dose of good ole NJ guilty before proven innocent logic and "at your own peril" BS designed to discourage non-resident holders from carrying in Philly.

 

IMO of course...

 

 

 

[GAPP 11]

Maybe I am misinterpreting because "legalese" is not always easy to understand. I am not trying to be argumentative, but I'd hate to see someone get into a "jackpot" after thinking themselves covered, based on incorrect advice.

 

 

 

Yeah, rereading it now, I may be misreading the law... maybe we both are... but with the legal mumbo-jumbo in the law, its easy to do. In section 2a they talk about exemptions to the law... then in 3a they talk about further exemptions (pertaining to non-residents)... but do those exemptions only apply after someone has been arrested and is sitting in front of a judge? How screwed up is that? And why would they set a law up for failure? I think Dan hit the nail on the head when he said they are just looking to discourage people from outside PA from carrying in Phili. I have two attorneys that help me out with my CCW and Personal Protection classes... Im going to bounce this issue off of them and get their take on it.

 

And by the way Bob, I dont think you're being argumentative, I appreciate the input... from both of you. Legal issues can confuse just about anyone and I always welcome a second viewpoint. I and an LEO that works with me spend about an hour in the class this thread is about talking about CCW laws... but since Im not an attorney, I give out a CD with the pertinent state laws so students can interpret them for themselves.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

The law came about because of the Philly politicians wanting to close the "Florida Loophole", a term that they and the MSM created - as none really exists.

 

In Phila County (which encompasses the city of Phila) the city PD is responsible for issuing a PA LTCF. They, not unlike NJ, read all kinds of preclusional criteria into the law - like denying someone with unpaid parking tickets, or someone who was the victim of a firearm theft. Conditions that would not result in denial under the law in any other jurisdiction in the state. Most denied applicants, rather than expend the money to appeal the denial, would simply get a permit from a reciprocal state (most often Florida, thus the "Floida Loophole" sobriquet - be aware that the criteria for getting a FL license is much more stringent the criteria for a PA license, something the politicians seemed to have ignored) and use that to carry in PA.

 

As I pointed out, Phily's original version of the law targeted only PA residents, carrying in PA on a non-resident permit from another state. In the final version, the "PA resident only" part went away and the final bill applies to anyone carrying in Philly on a license from a state other than their state of residence.

 

To summarize it succinctly:

 

There are only two classes of weapons carriers (other than LE) that are NOT subject to arrest in Philadelphia. They are: 1) A PA resident carrying on a PA LTCF, and; 2) A non-PA-resident from a reciprocal state carrying on their state-of-residence license/permit.

 

If you are carrying, in Philly, on a license issued by a state, of which you are not a resident, even though they may have reciprocity with PA, you are violating this new Philly "law".

 

The legality of carrying in Philly on a non-resident permit from the states named (Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Montana, North Dakota and Utah) only comes into play after an arrest and a trial. If it gets that far, the case will be thrown out based on pre-emption and the named states become moot, because that, too, is a violation of pre-emption (only the state government can enter into and recognize, reciprocal agreements).

 

Check with your attorney, but my thoughts are that a non-resident permit from the named states is no more help to you than one from any reciprocal state - you will still have to grind through the justice system before it gets tossed for a pre-emption violation.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[GAPP 11]

I talked to both my attorney buddies... and they had different takes from each other but both agreed on one thing, the Philidelphia law is ultimately going to be overturned in the courts... but it will take intervention by the state (injunction saying the law is invalid) or a court case (either lawsuit or criminal case). But the named states dont do much to protect a person carrying on the street... but could do something to protect them in the courts... but at that point, the law will be overturned anyway. I wouldnt want to be the test criminal case that overturns the law however... so Ill instruct my students accordingly. Thanks for the research Bob.

[GAPP 11]

We had a pretty good class yesterday. I know a few members of this sight have been to my UT/FL CCW class and I would love to hear your feedback. So either send me a PM or post up here if you have anything to say.