Question about the NJ FID appeals process

[68chris 20]

find another hobby

[Anselmo 87]

It's always good to show up to court with family.  It gives a better impression.  Wackos tend to be loners. 

 

No one knows what the future will bring.  NJ is a shall issue state for FID.  Technically, it's up to the prosecutor to prove you'll be unfit in the future.  Getting a new letter from a doctor doesn't make the old letter go away.  The prosecutor can still use it.  The judge isn't stupid. He/she knows no one can predict the future.

[vladtepes 1,060]

BUMPing this old thread.  I could still use some advice.  Here's an update:

 

After filing the appeal last summer, my lawyer dad got in contact with the prosecutor who handles the FID cases in Camden County.  Basically he suggested that I pull my appeal and get a new letter from a new doctor.  So I did that.  I talked to my primary care doctor who temporarily had prescribed me medication (which I have NOT had to take in over two years) and he wrote me a short letter summarizing that I've been in his care for over ten years and that currently I'm in good mental health and that he sees no reason why I shouldn't be granted an FID card. 

 

I reapplied this summer, and after running the background checks with everything coming back clear they decided that the letter from my doc was too vague.  They at least made an effort and called my doctor and told him what they were looking for in a letter.  Apparently they told him that he needed to not only vouch for my mental health status now, but for the future as well.  He submitted a new letter which basically said the same as the first, went on to say that I currently don't suffer from any mental health symptoms and currently he sees no reason to deny me an FID card.  So far so good, until the last paragraph where he said something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "...but due to the nature of mental health issues and illnesses, I cannot say with any certainty that Mike will forever be symptom free."  BAM!  Denial.

 

I got in contact with the prosecutor again and he said that it's a tough call because all they are looking for is for him to say that I am CURRENTLY and PRESENTLY symptom free, but that he "shot me in the foot" by adding that bit at the end.  He told me I'd have a tough (but not impossible) case in front of the judge and that I should either contact my doctor and ask him to remove that last sentence in regards to the future or find another doctor who'd be willing to take the liability (yeah, like that will happen).  He agreed that it would be difficult to find a doctor willing to do that and even offered to talk to my doctor and tell him what needs to be in the letter.

 

I talked to the doc and he said the police dept told him he needed to vouch for me in the present and future, to which he said he could never vouch for anyone's physical or mental health in the future.  He refused to change the letter or issue me a new one because he feels he did what the police dept told him to do and at this point he'd be more comfortable with the judge making the decision.  I tried to explain to him that I'm about the enter the appeal process and that the judge will be making a decision at this point and that the prosecutor was willing to talk to him and explain what they're looking for.  He still refused.

 

So....any suggestions?  I am still going through will filing the appeal and will go to court.  I cannot afford to hire an atty, so that's out of the question.  Does anyone know any pro-2a doctors in the southern half of NJ (or in the Philly area) that would be willing to run an evaluation?  Should I have my lawyer dad accompany me to court?  He's aware of the law and has offered to give me guidance on what to say in the appeal hearing, but would it be that much more effective if he's present with me as my counsel?  Any other suggestions?

 

Thanks guys, much appreciation, and sorry for rambling on.

 

 

with all due respect...  Anthony told you over a year ago how this would go.. he said I have the tools to deal with this and they will cost this much money... he also stated doing this alone was going to be extremely difficult..  my advice would be to listen to him.. and save your money up and have the situation handled properly... 

[marblesmike 0]

with all due respect...  Anthony told you over a year ago how this would go.. he said I have the tools to deal with this and they will cost this much money... he also stated doing this alone was going to be extremely difficult..  my advice would be to listen to him.. and save your money up and have the situation handled properly... 

 

I did things according to how he said to do them.  I talked to his attorney who would only give me relevent information (like where to send the appeal letter to) if I paid him, which is NOT what Anthony said would happen.  Eventually he gave me the info for free (I assume after Anthony talked to him).  I had the appeal all set up last summer and talked to the prosecutor myself (after he talked to my lawyer dad) and he told me to just hold off, get a new doctor's note and then reapply, which I did.

 

The police dept told my doctor he needed to vouch for my health in the future, which is impossible.  My doctor AND the prosecutor both agreed that no one will sign off on someone's health in the future since no one can predict it, and according to that logic I completely agree.  Not to mention that the statute only questions my CURRENT mental health and ability to own a firearm, so I'm not sure why the police dept forced my doctor into saying something that would get me denied.

 

I'm going to appeal this and go to court.  If the judge still denies me I can reapply and do this again and save up for a lawyer in the meantime.  But I'm hoping that my dad will be able to help me in court (he does know how to read the law and interpret it) or knows someone who can help pro bono.

 

Telling me that I should "find another hobby" or that I should have listened to so and so (which I did) doesn't really help my situation.  I was hoping that by sharing my story other people would share smiliar experiences or what to expect in the appeal hearing.

[LorenzoS 100]

The sad truth is that despite all the "common sense" and "reasonable" rhetoric, state uses every question on the application as an opportunity to deny people their rights.  It's an adversarial relationship. 

 

OP, I am sympathetic that you are a victim of this. 

[marblesmike 0]

Yeah, my dad talked to some other people and he was told unofficially that NJ's FID policy is to deny someone for any reason they can find.

[68chris 20]

marbles, your own words:

- treated for depression

- no longer a patient there

-dad is liberal and democrat

-do not want to pay attorney

-hoped police would cut you some slack for your honesty

-primary doctor has prescribed you medication, but you

have decided you dont need to take it at this point

-you now need a dr to write you some sort of letter

 

as much as i am pro2a i cant say i disagree with the

decision to err on the side of caution and deny you at

this point, for your own safety, and the safety of others.

 

if you disagree with that decision, it is your right to appeal,

there is a process in place, you can present your case with

whatever evidence you can to further your cause.a judge can

then make the final decision with the evidence you present based

on the facts.

 

appeals are very time sensitive and filings must be done by certain deadlines.

not sure if your time has expired or not.

[marblesmike 0]

See below for my comments.

marbles, your own words:
- treated for depression
- no longer a patient there
-dad is liberal and democrat (but is pro-2a and doesn't have a problem with me owning a gun and has even tried to help by reaching out to the prosecutor in the past)
-do not want to pay attorney agreed
-hoped police would cut you some slack for your honesty that was last summer when I tried to contact them to find out the status of my initial application and if there was anything else they needed from me; they ignored my three phone calls and just sent me a denial letter.  I don't think they should cut me slack in the investigation, I just think they could have at least called me back
-primary doctor has prescribed you medication, but you
have decided you dont need to take it at this point (no; as it was such a low dosage, my doctor and I agreed that I don't need any medication so he took me off them.  I didn't just stop taking them on my own accord
-you now need a dr to write you some sort of letter (according to the statute, I can have any doctor write me a note; my primary care doctor who has been seeing for 10+ years and is aware of the situation was willing to write such a letter and indeed vouched for me in the present.  The police told him he needed to vouch for my health in the future too, which no one in their sane mind can do for ANYONE, so in his letter, after stating that I was currently fine and could handle a gun safely without being a threat to myself of others, he added that he however can't verify that I'll be symptom free ten years from now.  Can you vouch for how your own health will be 10 years from now?  Didn't think so.  After all this, the prosecutor told me yesterday that it might just be easier to get a new letter, hence the search for another doctor.  Regardless I'm still going to appeal it.  I would just be more comfortable with my chances if I had another letter.

as much as i am pro2a i cant say i disagree with the
decision to err on the side of caution and deny you at
this point, for your own safety, and the safety of others.
How nice of you, but apparently you didn't read my posts all the way through and are just passing judgment.  The fact that my own doctor vouched for my current health says it all; the police dept just wanted him to vouch for the future as well, which no one can do and to this the prosecutor AGREED with me.  Strangely enough, the prosecutor who handles these cases for the county even told me that he and the judge are more concerned with the PRESENT.

if you disagree with that decision, it is your right to appeal,
there is a process in place, you can present your case with
whatever evidence you can to further your cause.a judge can
then make the final decision with the evidence you present based
on the facts.

Thanks for telling me something I already know and have stated here.

appeals are very time sensitive and filings must be done by certain deadlines.
not sure if your time has expired or not.

30 days, I know.  I have until the end of August.

 

[vladtepes 1,060]

Yeah, my dad talked to some other people and he was told unofficially that NJ's FID policy is to deny someone for any reason they can find.

 

 

im sorry you took it at giving you a hard time.. it was not intended.. and I am glad you are sharing your story... as for denying anyone they can... of course that is the policy as I would expect it to be.. not because I think YOU should not have guns.. or YOU are a danger.. I dont know you so I have no idea.. the reason I said to get proper legal counsel is the reason you already know.. you are beyond the point of thank yous and hand shakes... if you want gun rights unfortunately it looks like you are in for a fight.. and a fight you will not win with some interwebs couch lawyer advice...your dad can certainly represent you.. but I feel a lawyer schooled in firearms law would be far more beneficial.. 

[marblesmike 0]

im sorry you took it at giving you a hard time.. it was not intended.. and I am glad you are sharing your story... as for denying anyone they can... of course that is the policy as I would expect it to be.. not because I think YOU should not have guns.. or YOU are a danger.. I dont know you so I have no idea.. the reason I said to get proper legal counsel is the reason you already know.. you are beyond the point of thank yous and hand shakes... if you want gun rights unfortunately it looks like you are in for a fight.. and a fight you will not win with some interwebs couch lawyer advice...your dad can certainly represent you.. but I feel a lawyer schooled in firearms law would be far more beneficial.. 

 

No worries, sorry for seeming defensive.  BTW I like your handle.  I was actually pretty fortunate to go to Romania last summer and visit Vlad's last standing castle.  It was pretty magnificent!

 

If anyone else has any similar experiences or some extra advice that'd be great.  I'll update this thread as I progress through the appeals process.

 

Even though I'm in South Jersey, would joining the ANJRPC help me in any way?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Ah thanks... Most don't get it...

 

Sorry we don't have better advice... Let us know how it goes!

[marblesmike 0]

So after talking to a couple lawyers (including my dad) I have decided to just forget about this...for now.  I'd really need a new letter/doctor and with my health insurance I just don't want to pay the extra money for it.

 

I'm planning on moving soon, and I already live 10 minutes from Philly so I might just move to the other side of the bridge.  I just hope that this whole experience won't come up on my federal background check when I go to get a gun as a PA resident.  Anyone know about this?

 

Just figured I'd give an update.