Question about the NJ FID appeals process

[marblesmike 0]

Hello folks, first post here.

 

I recently applied for my FID in Haddonfield and after 3 months was denied for mental health reasons. I've got no criminal record as an adult or juvenile, but had been treated up until fairly recently for mild depression. They called me 2 weeks into the application process to ask my mental health record. Being an honest citizen, I told them I had been recently treated for mild depression at so and so's office but was no longer a patient there. They called the doctor's office and got a letter from the doctor recommending that I get an independent evaluation since I hadn't been in for a visit in a couple months. The doctor's office also notified me to tell me that they sent the letter. I tried leaving messages on the detectives' voicemails after that (maybe 2 or 3 times over the next 2 months) to see if I needed additional paperwork to take to a shrink to get an evaluation but got no response until a denial letter 2 weeks ago. It cited "public safety and welfare" and that it was recommended I get a private evalution (duh!!!!).

 

I called the Camden County Superior Court Clerk to ask about what exactly I need to do to appeal it properly and no one there had any idea what I was talking about. All I got from the assistant detective in Haddonfield (the sergent was the one who denied the application but he has not returned any of my 3 voicemails over the last two months) was that I should appeal it and get a note from a doctor and I should be a-ok.

 

So I was hoping someone here could shed some light on how I file an appeal properly to make sure it gets read and a hearing is scheduled. I don't want to have to hire an attorney unless I have to, as my dad is a real estate attorney so he could probably give me advice or attend court with me if I need him too. I want to get on this so the 30 day appeal window doesn't close and I won't have to reapply.

 

Actually, on a side note, my dad, a lifelong liberal and democrat, is so annoyed about the process and how they arbitrarily denied me that he himself is applying for an FID to see if he's denied too. His record is as clean as can be--no criminal nor mental health records, but my guess is he gets denied because of me.

 

Thanks for the advice folks.

[this_is_nascar 162]

Hello folks, first post here.

 

I recently applied for my FID in Haddonfield and after 3 months was denied for mental health reasons. I've got no criminal record as an adult or juvenile, but had been treated up until fairly recently for mild depression. They called me 2 weeks into the application process to ask my mental health record. Being an honest citizen, I told them I had been recently treated for mild depression at so and so's office but was no longer a patient there. They called the doctor's office and got a letter from the doctor recommending that I get an independent evaluation since I hadn't been in for a visit in a couple months. The doctor's office also notified me to tell me that they sent the letter. I tried leaving messages on the detectives' voicemails after that (maybe 2 or 3 times over the next 2 months) to see if I needed additional paperwork to take to a shrink to get an evaluation but got no response until a denial letter 2 weeks ago. It cited "public safety and welfare" and that it was recommended I get a private evaluation (duh!!!!).

 

I called the Camden County Superior Court Clerk to ask about what exactly I need to do to appeal it properly and no one there had any idea what I was talking about. All I got from the assistant detective in Haddonfield (the sergent was the one who denied the application but he has not returned any of my 3 voicemails over the last two months) was that I should appeal it and get a note from a doctor and I should be a-ok.

 

So I was hoping someone here could shed some light on how I file an appeal properly to make sure it gets read and a hearing is scheduled. I don't want to have to hire an attorney unless I have to, as my dad is a real estate attorney so he could probably give me advice or attend court with me if I need him too. I want to get on this so the 30 day appeal window doesn't close and I won't have to reapply.

 

Actually, on a side note, my dad, a lifelong liberal and democrat, is so annoyed about the process and how they arbitrarily denied me that he himself is applying for an FID to see if he's denied too. His record is as clean as can be--no criminal nor mental health records, but my guess is he gets denied because of me.

 

Thanks for the advice folks.

 

 

Sorry, I don't have the advise you seek, however I'm not sure how you can say they "arbitrarily denied" you. I, for one, have no problem with the state being a bit more cautious with those applicants who have been classified with mental concerns. Once you find out what the appeal process is, properly use that process and if all is well, you should be fine. Try taking a trip to your local PD. Don't rely on phonecalls, etc.

[marblesmike 0]

Sorry, I don't have the advise you seek, however I'm not sure how you can say they "arbitrarily denied" you. I, for one, have no problem with the state being a bit more cautious with those applicants who have been classified with mental concerns. Once you find out what the appeal process is, properly use that process and if all is well, you should be fine. Try taking a trip to your local PD. Don't rely on phonecalls, etc.

 

I appreciate that they check up on people, but when I made every attempt to be honest with the application process, then tried to take action before they denied me by seeking the proper channels with getting evaluated, etc and they ignored my phone calls makes it seem like they "arbitrarily denied" me.

[gunforhire 826]

Please call Frank Pisano Esq. Tell him I sent you. 973-334-4422

[marblesmike 0]

Please call Frank Pisano Esq. Tell him I sent you. 973-334-4422

 

Thanks, I'll consider that, but I'm really not trying to get an attorney unless I really need one. I don't have excess thousands to spend right now. I just want to know where/how to file the appeal properly so it doesn't get swept under the rug.

[gunforhire 826]

PM sent

[NJScott 15]

Listen to Anthony! Good luck.

[intercooler 41]

You over analyzed question 26. That is gonna cost you now and forever more. The system exists to deny, simple as that. Get a lawyer asap

[marblesmike 0]

You over analyzed question 26. That is gonna cost you now and forever more. The system exists to deny, simple as that. Get a lawyer asap

 

Overanalyzed? How so? Should I have not mentioned it to them?

[Twospot 38]

I actually lived through this. I think this depends on the PD. I went through a 4 or 5 years stint with seeing a psych and was on anti depressants. I chose to do that to STAY healthy. My marriage was tanking for years, then i found out she was cheating. in that single year, I found that out, filed for divorce, lost my mother to cancer, filed bankruptcy and lost my house (due to the divorce) and lost my job (thank god I found a new one within a few months). I was candid with the police and gave all my doctor info and encouraged them to call. I actually wrote a letter and attached it to my FID app. I actually assumed I was going to be denied. I indeed was not. However I would rather have been denied for telling the truth then lying and committing a crime. It is true someone said above its just another reason to deny someone, but I'd rather tell the truth. I know this doesn't answer your question, but I would fight it. I could have let myself sink in deep and bad. Losing my mother, my family, everything I owned except for 12 items, having to start paying $2200 a month in child support and alimony. It was a hard hit. There are more LEO's out there that are more nuts than us that go to a shrink for tough life events. Yet they're allowed to walk the streets daily with a weapon. Sometimes I think folks on this forum are quick to judge in these situations just as the PD's sometimes are. It all comes down to circumstances. I am healthy, I haven't saw a shrink or been on meds for a few years now and life is really good.

[ALAN553 27]

This is not fair. Anyone who has sought any type of help from a psychologist can be victim to this. Most doctors will use some type of depression coding in order to get reimbursed from health insurance companies. Even those that seek marital help could fall victim to this. Anyone can suffer from mild reactive depression, divorce, death in the family etc. not a cause for denying a FID.

[ALAN553 27]

I see two spot basically said the same thing in his post that appeared as I hit post.

[marblesmike 0]

I kept up with the whole process, and was in contact with the shrinks office when they sent the letter. I was hoping the police would cut me some slack and give me the necessary information to go get the evaluation before denying me. Instead they never returned my calls and waited 3 months to issue me a denial letter. That's what gets me the most. This whole thing could have easily been avoided.

 

I'm glad I didn't lie on the form, but at the same time I kinda wish I did because that seems the only way I could have avoided all of this.

[Twospot 38]

Yeah but then you would have been a criminal if they found out. My guess is this was them being a bunch of jerks. I am not sure this type of stuff comes up on the Mental Health background check. I think that is for if someone was committed. So that probably came back clean but because you said you have visited a shrink they just write you off. I can sympathize with you on financial side of fighting it because I was contemplating the same if they denied me. This wouldn't even be an issue if this state wasn't such a constitution hater.

[marblesmike 0]

I left a message for Frank Pisano, so hopefully I'll hear from him by mid-week. I have to file the appeal by next week at the latest before i head off to Europe on the 19th. I'll keep this thread updated with any progress.

 

Also, any info about the appeals process would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

[marblesmike 0]

Oh and I understand the need for background checks and all that, but just because they do background checks doesn't mean they should just be able to deny anyone for anything. Also, like in my case, I was trying to be proactive and avoid any issues and file all my paperwork and forms correctly. They had every opportunity to be helpful and assist me in the process. Instead they just ignored me then eventually denied me.

 

That really makes me feel like a peon.

[this_is_nascar 162]

I appreciate that they check up on people, but when I made every attempt to be honest with the application process, then tried to take action before they denied me by seeking the proper channels with getting evaluated, etc and they ignored my phone calls makes it seem like they "arbitrarily denied" me.

 

 

I understand what you're saying. That's why I'm suggesting a physical visit to the local PD, rather than the phone calls. Good luck with this.

[chumo00 0]

Overanalyzed? How so? Should I have not mentioned it to them?

If someone asks you if feel depressed or were ever say "NO!", they are not hear to help you. I said "No" even though I have gotten help in my past. That is between my doctor and I not some cop I don't know at all.

[Twospot 38]

 

If someone asks you if feel depressed or were ever say "NO!", they are not hear to help you. I said "No" even though I have gotten help in my past. That is between my doctor and I not some cop I don't know at all.

I understand that, but what if somehow they found it? Then you would be a felon. I don't agree with it at all. I just would rather not be a criminal.

[ALAN553 27]

I think, but not sure, the only time a hit comes back on a mental health check is if you are Involuntarily committed to a mental health facility. That would be the only time that government gets involved. If you admit yourself there is no record, your medical records are protected by HIPPA laws. So there is never any reason to answer yes to mental health issues when they are simple doctor patient relationships. If that were the only reason for not handing a gun to a person in this country there would be no LE people to hire. School psychologists, marital issues etc, many have sought that kind of help, maybe even more than would seek out their primary care doc.

[gunforhire 826]

I have been involved in too many cases like this in the past and it is alway's a pain in the neck. There are way's to rectify that are not that expensive, usually under $700. Anyone else has this problem please PM me. I do not make anything on this nor would I ever want to. I have the legal and medical network that are pro 2A that will advise. DO not try to fix it yourself or lie. This I assure you cannot be fixed.

 

My advise for students that want to put the papers in that may have had "issues" is to see a lawyer BEFORE you fill out and submit the papers, it can save a lot of time and cash.

 

Anthony

[marblesmike 0]

Update:

 

I talked to Frank Pisano and told him that I wanted to handle this ProSe, but that I just needed to know where to send the appeal letters. He told me that I need to send one to Camden County Superior Court Judge Natal, the Camden County Prosecutors Office, the Office of the Superintendant of State Police, and to the chief of police in Haddonfield (my town).

 

I just need to find a doctor here in south Jersey that will give me a fair evaluation and write a letter on my behalf. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, and I'll update this thread as there are new developments in my case.

[gunforhire 826]

Tread lightly with picking a Dr. I wish i new one that I could refer.

[marblesmike 0]

Should I be up front and tell him I need an independent evaluation for a firearms permit?

[gunforhire 826]

Yes before you pay the fee,

[xshawnxearthx 0]

I think, but not sure, the only time a hit comes back on a mental health check is if you are Involuntarily committed to a mental health facility. That would be the only time that government gets involved. If you admit yourself there is no record, your medical records are protected by HIPPA laws. So there is never any reason to answer yes to mental health issues when they are simple doctor patient relationships. If that were the only reason for not handing a gun to a person in this country there would be no LE people to hire. School psychologists, marital issues etc, many have sought that kind of help, maybe even more than would seek out their primary care doc.

I have a similar issue, but not the same.

 

My scenario. As a youth I went to a hospital for an evaluation. I was 15 at the time and released with no issues. THis was not court ordered, and it showed up on the mental health check. Officer called and questioned me about it. When I explained the situation he was really understanding and seemed like he really cared and wanted to help. He gave me my options of seeking my old records and or having an evaluation done by a psychologist. After a few dozen calls and some dead ends, I found a few places that would give me an evaluation, but that came with a hefty price tag($1500-1900). At my wits end, I decided to make a few more calls, and came across a doctor would see me, and charge a very reasonable fee for a letter stating his findings. I've been in limbo for the past 6 weeks due to an appointment that ended in the guy telling me he couldn't do it. So Tuesday is my big day. Hopefully I can have the evaluation letter done before the end of the week and be celebrating with a pistol purchase.

[xshawnxearthx 0]

Should I be up front and tell him I need an independent evaluation for a firearms permit?

If you need the phone number of the doctor who is going to give me my evaluation, shoot me a pm.

[marblesmike 0]

Pm sent.

 

I'm actually probably just going to get my primary care doctor to write me a letter since he's the one that regulates and oversees my medication. He already told me he'd write a letter clearing me for a FID purchase. And according to the actual statute referenced in my denial letter, that should be enough:

 

No permit should be issued —

To any person who suffers from a physical defect or disease which would make it unsafe for him to handle firearms, to any person who has ever been confined for a mental disorder, or to any alcoholic unless any of the foregoing persons produces a certificate of a medical doctor or psychiatrist licensed in New Jersey, or other satisfactory proof, that he is no longer suffering from that particular disability in such a manner that would interfere with or handicap him in the handling of firearms; to any person who knowingly falsifies any information on the application form for a handgun purchase permit or firearms purchaser identification card

 

So we'll see. As of today, the appeal letters are written and have been sent via certified and regular mail to all of the recipients.

[intercooler 41]

I will pm you when I get home

[marblesmike 0]

BUMPing this old thread.  I could still use some advice.  Here's an update:

 

After filing the appeal last summer, my lawyer dad got in contact with the prosecutor who handles the FID cases in Camden County.  Basically he suggested that I pull my appeal and get a new letter from a new doctor.  So I did that.  I talked to my primary care doctor who temporarily had prescribed me medication (which I have NOT had to take in over two years) and he wrote me a short letter summarizing that I've been in his care for over ten years and that currently I'm in good mental health and that he sees no reason why I shouldn't be granted an FID card. 

 

I reapplied this summer, and after running the background checks with everything coming back clear they decided that the letter from my doc was too vague.  They at least made an effort and called my doctor and told him what they were looking for in a letter.  Apparently they told him that he needed to not only vouch for my mental health status now, but for the future as well.  He submitted a new letter which basically said the same as the first, went on to say that I currently don't suffer from any mental health symptoms and currently he sees no reason to deny me an FID card.  So far so good, until the last paragraph where he said something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "...but due to the nature of mental health issues and illnesses, I cannot say with any certainty that Mike will forever be symptom free."  BAM!  Denial.

 

I got in contact with the prosecutor again and he said that it's a tough call because all they are looking for is for him to say that I am CURRENTLY and PRESENTLY symptom free, but that he "shot me in the foot" by adding that bit at the end.  He told me I'd have a tough (but not impossible) case in front of the judge and that I should either contact my doctor and ask him to remove that last sentence in regards to the future or find another doctor who'd be willing to take the liability (yeah, like that will happen).  He agreed that it would be difficult to find a doctor willing to do that and even offered to talk to my doctor and tell him what needs to be in the letter.

 

I talked to the doc and he said the police dept told him he needed to vouch for me in the present and future, to which he said he could never vouch for anyone's physical or mental health in the future.  He refused to change the letter or issue me a new one because he feels he did what the police dept told him to do and at this point he'd be more comfortable with the judge making the decision.  I tried to explain to him that I'm about the enter the appeal process and that the judge will be making a decision at this point and that the prosecutor was willing to talk to him and explain what they're looking for.  He still refused.

 

So....any suggestions?  I am still going through will filing the appeal and will go to court.  I cannot afford to hire an atty, so that's out of the question.  Does anyone know any pro-2a doctors in the southern half of NJ (or in the Philly area) that would be willing to run an evaluation?  Should I have my lawyer dad accompany me to court?  He's aware of the law and has offered to give me guidance on what to say in the appeal hearing, but would it be that much more effective if he's present with me as my counsel?  Any other suggestions?

 

Thanks guys, much appreciation, and sorry for rambling on.