NJ NFA Weapons?

[Carcano 14]

According to the State Police, if a person obtains a "Licenses to Possess and Carry Machine Gun, 2C:58-5" that person could own assault weapons (M1 Carbine, for example).

 

Is this worth trying to obtain? I'm determined to find some way to legally obtain a M1 Carbine in this State.

 

I understand that if I'm denied the license it could prevent me from owning firearms all together?

 

Any advice or don't even think about it?

[GRIZ 3,369]

Don't think about it. IIRC buried somewhere in the statutes or administration code you need to demonstrate to a judge how you having that NFA or AW weapon serves a purpose to the community. The only people I know that have gotten a permit for a semi AW are LEOS who have a letter from their chief the gun is being purchased with private funds for use in their official duties. It is made clear to them they must dispose of it or move it out of state if they retire, leave the department, go to another department where It's not authorized, or the chief revokes their authorization. The 16" barrel M4 seems to be the favorite.

 

These procedures were established to clarify what conditions LEOS can possess personally owned AWs by the NJ AG. Contrary to gun forum bs there have been LEOS arrested for possession of AWs in NJ.

[mipafox 438]

Are AOWs described in NJ firearms laws? I've seen several sources saying they are NJ legal but never found anything here about it.

 

MGs we all know, must demonstrate they are needed for the safety of the community (or whatever) and must be qualified for permit to carry a handgun. But never seen anything on AOWs.

[PK90 3,570]

 

Carcano, if you were able to obtain a license to own and carry machineguns, why do you only want an M1 Carbine?

[mipafox 438]

Can I get a "hidden gun" AOW in Jersey with a police signature on a Form 1/4? I think most AOW shotguns are banned under barrel length. But is there a ban on regular old AOWs?

[Carcano 14]

 

Carcano, if you were able to obtain a license to own and carry machineguns, why do you only want an M1 Carbine?

 

 

I could buy a transferable MAC and S&W M76

 

Or I could move...I think moving is the better option lol

 

Can I get a "hidden gun" AOW in Jersey with a police signature on a Form 1/4? I think most AOW shotguns are banned under barrel length. But is there a ban on regular old AOWs?

 

I've read that AOW's are NJ legal, just no SBR/SBS but I've been toying around with the idea of AOW's...

[intercooler 41]

What is an aow?

[intercooler 41]

I know it's all other weapons but what constitutes that?

[Carcano 14]

I know it's all other weapons but what constitutes that?

 

Well, I know one that would be legal in NJ...

 

A 26.5mm surplus flare gun and a 22. LR adapter.

 

But I wonder what other AOW's are legal in NJ?

[mipafox 438]

I know it's all other weapons but what constitutes that?

One example would be an SBS without a stock. Since it has no stock, it is not a shotgun. But because it is not pistol, it is an AOW due to barrel and/or overall length. I think most or all would be illegal in NJ unless there is a loophole (such as NJ does not define overall length properly). There are other guns like that.

 

Then there are guns that don't look like guns. Pen guns that don't fold (folding pen guns are largely Title I), cigarette box guns, cell phone guns (I would guess NJ banned those), folding semi-auto versions of MGs that look like radios or flashlights (because MGs would just be MGs). Anything that is small but is not a handgun or an SBS/SBR by definition, or any gun that is small and specifically designed to not appear as a gun.

 

If you want the official definition go to the ATF website

[Carcano 14]

One example would be an SBS without a stock. Since it has no stock, it is not a shotgun. But because it is not pistol, it is an AOW due to barrel and/or overall length. I think most or all would be illegal in NJ unless there is a loophole (such as NJ does not define overall length properly). There are other guns like that.

 

Then there are guns that don't look like guns. Pen guns that don't fold (folding pen guns are largely Title I), cigarette box guns, cell phone guns (I would guess NJ banned those), folding semi-auto versions of MGs that look like radios or flashlights (because MGs would just be MGs). Anything that is small but is not a handgun or an SBS/SBR by definition, or any gun that is small and specifically designed to not appear as a gun.

 

If you want the official definition go to the ATF website

 

Speaking of pen guns, wonder how that would fly in NJ? I know they made non-folding pen guns in .38 and .410 that are AOW's.

[mipafox 438]

 

Well, I know one that would be legal in NJ...

 

A 26.5mm surplus flare gun and a 22. LR adapter.

 

That's not AOW. Just a plain ol' .22.

[PK90 3,570]

I had a couple Mossberg 590A1 with 14" barrels in NJ that were Federally approved on Form 3s. When NJSP FIU did an inspection, they said they were illegal in NJ and even I could not have them as an FFL/SOT. In fact, I had to explain what an AOW was to them. They were uneducated (and still are about federal laws). After 2 days of thinking about it, they got back to me and said that they considered them a SBS and I had to get rid of them. If I pushed the issue, they would consider them as a DD, according to NJ laws. I didn't feel like fighting them over that, so I sold them out of state.

[Carcano 14]

 

That's not AOW. Just a plain ol' .22.

 

Not, it isn't.

 

BATFE considers it an AOW, BATFE also says that centerfire conversions are AOW's if installed:

 

EDIT link: http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html

 

Flare Launcher Inserts

Classification

Any Other Weapons, only when possessed with a flare launcher

Distinctive Characteristics

Generally made of metal

[Carcano 14]

Flare Launchers

Classification Not a Firearm Distinctive Characteristics

Generally plastic

Special Note

AOW when possessed with ammunition inserts.

Rate of Transfer Tax None

 

***Tax would be $200 with the "ammunition inserts"***

[Carcano 14]

I had a couple Mossberg 590A1 with 14" barrels in NJ that were Federally approved on Form 3s. When NJSP FIU did an inspection, they said they were illegal in NJ and even I could not have them as an FFL/SOT. In fact, I had to explain what an AOW was to them. They were uneducated (and still are about federal laws). After 2 days of thinking about it, they got back to me and said that they considered them a SBS and I had to get rid of them. If I pushed the issue, they would consider them as a DD, according to NJ laws. I didn't feel like fighting them over that, so I sold them out of state.

 

Paul, that sucks I thought SOT's could have SBS's in NJ? and the fact they would have considered it a DD if you pushed the issue tells 'ya what the State knows (or dosen't know) about firearms. :facepalm:

 

So I guess they had to go to another SOT out of State? Not even a LE Dept. could buy them?

[PK90 3,570]

LEO could buy them, but I was told that I needed to get rid of them asap.

[Carcano 14]

LEO could buy them, but I was told that I needed to get rid of them asap.

 

So...LE dept's would have to have them shipped direct to the dept and not to a FFL/SOT if I understand correctly.

 

Sorry you had to deal with that, I've spoken to some decent people at FIU over the last 5 or so months and while I ran into a few that were..well, you know, the majority were pretty helpful.

[Carcano 14]

FYI, only one person in South Jersey has manchine guns legally registered with the State. I think he may have passed away I'm not sure but it was one hell of a HUGE collection.

[PK90 3,570]

Just to clarify, any NJ FFL can have MGs. They only need to pay the tax.

[Carcano 14]

Just to clarify, any NJ FFL can have MGs. They only need to pay the tax.

 

If you are an FFL/SOT can you legally keep MG's after giving up the license? ie if you have pre-86 MG's in the books and close shop can you keep them without a State license?

 

I know a shop that closed, the owner was able to keep all title 1 firearms he had in his books.

[mipafox 438]

 

Not, it isn't.

 

BATFE considers it an AOW, BATFE also says that centerfire conversions are AOW's if installed:

 

.22 is not centerfire.

 

If you are an FFL/SOT can you legally keep MG's after giving up the license? ie if you have pre-86 MG's in the books and close shop can you keep them without a State license?

 

I know a shop that closed, the owner was able to keep all title 1 firearms he had in his books.

Federally, you can keep pre-86 dealer samples when you surrender your FFL. Jersey, I don't know what they have to say about it. Post-May, FFLs cannot keep them without their FFL.

 

Why would anybody not be allowed to keep all Title I guns? Title I is not NFA.

[mipafox 438]

Wow, they have stuff listed on that ATF webpage that they are calling AOW that has been confirmed by ATF or courts as NOT being AOW and simply Title I.

 

You have me unsure about the flare launcher inserts though...

[Carcano 14]

Wow, they have stuff listed on that ATF webpage that they are calling AOW that has been confirmed by ATF or courts as NOT being AOW and simply Title I. You have me unsure about the flare launcher inserts though...

 

See? It's confusing. Some of those items are not AOW's and vice versa.

 

I have a flare gun insert (gasp!) but no launcher so I'm legal, but the letter that came with it said it would create a title 1 firearm if installed in the launcher (that letter is from ATF FTB) but another one I purchased a year or so later says it creates an AOW.

[Carcano 14]

 

.22 is not centerfire.

 

 

Federally, you can keep pre-86 dealer samples when you surrender your FFL. Jersey, I don't know what they have to say about it. Post-May, FFLs cannot keep them without their FFL.

 

Why would anybody not be allowed to keep all Title I guns? Title I is not NFA.

 

That's what I was wondering, if I had an FFL and State retail license and 3 or 5 years down the road decide to give up both the Federal and State license could I keep a pre-86 dealer sample.

 

Of course, my town wants nothing to do with another FFL as the shop already in town worked something out with the local PD and zoning board to keep it that way many years ago.

 

Damn it, I should move back into the sticks

[Oakridgefirearms 224]

Don't think about it. IIRC buried somewhere in the statutes or administration code you need to demonstrate to a judge how you having that NFA or AW weapon serves a purpose to the community. The only people I know that have gotten a permit for a semi AW are LEOS who have a letter from their chief the gun is being purchased with private funds for use in their official duties. It is made clear to them they must dispose of it or move it out of state if they retire, leave the department, go to another department where It's not authorized, or the chief revokes their authorization. The 16" barrel M4 seems to be the favorite.

 

These procedures were established to clarify what conditions LEOS can possess personally owned AWs by the NJ AG. Contrary to gun forum bs there have been LEOS arrested for possession of AWs in NJ.

And.....IIRC you need an NJ carry permit to even apply for an MG license, so we all know how insurmountable the MG process is going to be.

[Oakridgefirearms 224]

Just to clarify, any NJ FFL can have MGs. They only need to pay the tax.

Does the state want anything more? Like a commitment from a LE agency to buy FA firearms from you?

[PK90 3,570]

Does the state want anything more? Like a commitment from a LE agency to buy FA firearms from you?

NO. Pay the tax. Buy Pre-Sample MGs.

[Carcano 14]

NO. Pay the tax. Buy Pre-Sample MGs.

 

I hate looking at those lists not being an FFL

 

Some nice stuff to demo

 

EDIT: And pretty cheap to, ammo is not of course

[mipafox 438]

See? It's confusing. Some of those items are not AOW's and vice versa.

 

I have a flare gun insert (gasp!) but no launcher so I'm legal, but the letter that came with it said it would create a title 1 firearm if installed in the launcher (that letter is from ATF FTB) but another one I purchased a year or so later says it creates an AOW.

Yeah, it's messed up alright.

 

Honestly, I've always been able to figure out NFA when I wanted something. An done informal (or formal) due diligence when it was questionable. I've always been confident in my decisions.

 

Ask me about replacement wipes for SIONICS silencers. I don't know. Never bought one.

 

Is a shotgun with a rifled barrel and a 10 gauge bore with no stock and a 4" barrel a pistol? No idea.

 

I know some of that stuff is wrong on that ATF page, but I know what is right just before I buy it or build it.