Mental Health Background Check

[FlyersFan 1]

I've got a question for you kind folks. I was asked about this the other day and I really didn't know exactly how to respond. I know we all go through a mental health check when we get our FID and pistol permits. What exactly does that reveal? If someone goes to a psychiatrist and, say, receives therapy for something like obsessive compulsive disorder without being prescribed any psych meds or anything like that, will that show up on the check and prevent that individual from owning a firearm in NJ? Or is it only an issue when you are on meds, or have been institutionalized or something such as that? Thanks guys!

[Maksim 1,504]

Now part of NICS check as well. When you are institutionalized.

[FlyersFan 1]

I didn't know that Maks, but that's good to hear. We certainly don't need any more VA Techs or anything crazy like that happening with guns in the hands of mentally ill people, so I'm thankful that they check for that sort of thing when they run the NICS check.

 

Aside from the whole institutionalized thing though, I think some people are afraid of seeing a therapist about working through general life issues for fear of not being able to own a gun. (Hence the reason I was asked this question the other day, haha.) I wasn't sure how to respond because I didn't know if someone seeing a therapist would show up on the mental health check.

[e80hydro 120]

If you seek mental help voluntarily for lifes issues, no. That information is private. If a judge sentences you to the nut house because you beat your wife or like to yell or throw things yes, this will show up. I believe even being sent for anger managment by the courts shows up. Not really a bad thing.

[BRaptor 68]

I don't have any first-hand experience, only information that I've read on this board.

 

I don't know if you being treated by a psychiatrist (M.D.) will "show up" on the checks if you weren't prescribed meds. However, I'm pretty confident that if you fail to disclose it and it does show up, there's a good chance you will be denied for lying on your application.

 

On the other hand, people that have gone through a tough divorce or a close family friend died etc. and sought counseling (and were not medicated) and disclosed it on the application have had to get a mental health evaluation, which can be a bit pricey. However, from what I recall, there are some on this board that went through this, have been cleared and received permits.

 

Good luck with your application.

[FlyersFan 1]

Thanks guys, that's what I figured but wasn't really sure.

 

And thank you BRaptor - It's a friend of mine who is moving from PA to NJ in the new year who needs the good luck though, not me. The only insane thing I do is vote for Libertarian candidates every election day hoping they having a chance at winning haha

[Downr@nge 22]

I found this on newjuserseyhunter forums.

 

I hope this helps shine some light about the way records are kept.

 

As I understand it, there are two broad classes of records that can pertain to a person's medical history, including mental health records. They are:

 

The "HIPAA" class of records. These are national, privately maintained databases that have been established by medical consortiums for use primarily by insurance companies to evalute risk categories for people they cover or have applied for coverage. Records are created in these database whenever a person makes a claim for coverage on their insurance for a visit to any medical professional. Examples of these consortiums include

 

* MIB (the Medical Information Bureau)

* InteliScript

* MedPoint

 

+++

 

The "governmental" class of records. These are records that are maintained by governmental entities and, FOR THE MOST PART, are created ONLY as a result of a court order or proceeding (note that some proceedings, particularly probate court, where some of these decisions are made, can be very informal). A negative outcome for this kind of proceeding is a disqualifier federally ("prohibited person"), and depending on the reporting status of the state in question (not all states report everything to NICS - of course, NJ does), will prevent you from getting an FID or from purchasing at any transaction requiring a NICS check (FFL transaction). These include

 

* Competency hearings, where a court has decided that a person charged with a crime requires evaluation to determine whether he or she is competent to stand trial.

 

* Probate or probate-like hearings where an individual has been declared incapable of handling their own affairs. This typically involves the mentally handicapped or those who are having temporary issues - conservatorships fall into this category, such as Britney Spears' situation.

 

* Comittment proceedings, where a person has been formally declared insane and a potential danger to themselves or their community. This is also usually a probate proceeding.

 

* A special category of the above is the Physician's Emergency Certificate (PEC) - so named in NJ, and has similar names and functions in other states. This is where a doctor wants a person, as a result of a police visit or other encounter, to be evaluated overnight for mental health. These are tricky - in some states, they do NOT count as a NICS reportable event. In some, like NJ, they do. This would require research for a person who believes they may fall into this category.

 

* Not guilty by reason of insanity findings by a court.

 

In NJ, there is a special county-level position called the county adjuster. One of their primary responsibilities is maintaining records of anything in the second category (see above), and attendance at ANY STATE FACILITY. For non-NJ records, I believe this is handled by the "13-point check" (NCIC/III/NICS, etc.) that occurs during the record check performed by the NJSP/SBI. When you apply for your FID/PPID, the mental health form you fill out is handled by the county adjuster for your count[ies] that you have lived in while in NJ. In theory, you should be able to contact the adjuster directly and request your own records.

 

The mental health records check involves ONLY THE SECOND CATEGORY of records, NOT THE FIRST. The first are governed by HIPAA (and the FCRA, maintained but not dispensed in a similar fashion to your credit record), only pertain to the last 7 years, and these organizations only deal with member organizations, not the government. They will ONLY give records to third parties with the written consent of the subject of the record, and ONLY if the release form specifically names the agency requesting the info (the NJ form does not do this). The second category can be retained indefinitely, but this can vary drastically from one jurisdiction to another, depending on the proceeding, and the jurisdiction's use/migration of technology (e.g., computerization). NICS didn't really begin maintaining records, if my recollection is correct, until around late 1998.

 

The first category is [today] safe from government scrutiny. The second is not, but negative history there can be handled via an expungement. This is a very specialized area of the law at the county, state, and federal level, and NJ is making it harder all the time to keep even expunged information from prohibiting a person from exercising their rights permanently. If you believe you fall into the second category, you should consult an attorney.

 

Anyway, I am also NOT a lawyer, and this may not directly answer your question, but I thought this would be useful information for the community. In your case, I seriously doubt you have anything to worry about. Good luck to you.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Visiting a psychiatrist voluntarily could be construed as consultation rather than treatment.

Just because you visit a lawyer doesn't mean you committed a crime.

[MrP 81]

When I applied for my FPID and Pistol Permits, I did check the box for "Have you ever been treated for any psychiatric conditions etc". Back in high school, for about a month I was treated for mild clinical depression which it turns out was more affected by the coming winter and a death in the family. This did bring my app process to a grinding halt, as they said they required a letter from the doctor who treated me stating I was fit to own a firearm/not impaired in any way. After stalling for about two weeks when they insisted they contacted him, I tracked down his number and called him myself. He told me they never called/wrote/faxed anything which is what I had expected. After making a big enough fuss they DID write him a letter (a week later) and he responded that yes of course I'm fit to own/operate a firearm. After a bit more stalling on the PD's part, (and more calls from me) my FPID/PP's came through and that was that. Sorry if this is too much info, but it seemed like an experience others might want to hear if they were in a similar situation, debating whether or not to apply.

 

Long story short, it slowed the process down but didn't end it. YMMV.

[autonomous 0]

So in other words, if I had gone in the past, voluntarily, to see a psychologist or a psychiatrist, there would be no way for the government to know that. I could probably get away with not even mentioning it in answer to question #26 on the FPIC/Handgun Permit application (if I didn't want to worry about being slowed down, digging up an address and number for a therapist from a decade ago, making follow-up phone calls to the therapist, etc). Is that correct?

[mxl16 0]

I have some experience with this...Having gone through the process a few times, I'm confident that I could have left my one and only dr visit that was x years ago off my application and it would not have shown up on any kind of mental health check. As you guys know, it's not just when you apply for an FID, which would almost be reasonable. It's when you apply for new handgun permits or even change your address. Every time you submit that application and check yes to that question, they will send an approval letter to that dr. If the dr requires a visit sign that letter, you are looking and long, expensive, and painful process every time you want to buy a handgun. For me, I have to make at least 15-20 phone calls back and forth to make sure this the form gets signed and mailed back to the PD. It's a HUGE PITA but I'm stuck with it.

 

All of this is negated by the fact that you can falsify the process any number of different ways. On top of that, if I apply for new handgun permits and I'm plotting some horrible act with said handguns, why would I not use the handguns I already have in my possession...its so incredibly stupid it can only happen in NJ.

 

I'm simply stating my opinion and obviously you will have to weigh the risk of not disclosing all info on your application. If you're denied for not disclosing, I'm sure you would have a very difficult fight to have any sort of firearms rights in this state. To me, it wasn't worth it. Whether any kind of database exists or not, if you read that language on the form, it clearly states that any visit to a mental health professional should be disclosed. It may have been intended for people who are heavily medicated or people who have been admitted for mental disorders but unfortunately due to the language, people who have been to any mind of mental health professional (even once in their life) for any reason, are subject to that requirement. While it may be nobodies business, the language is on the form.

 

It's very disappointing when law abiding citizens have to jump through hoops to exercise our constitutional right.

[leahcim 680]

And if you disclose it in the paperwork once, you will have to disclose it forever and the PD will have to go through the same stupid check again--every time. Because of this, any such condition would have to become severe before I would EVER talk to a medical professional, therapist, counseler about it.

 

So does that make me paranoid?

[Tash329 2]

Doctors aren't allowed by law to release anyones medical records, imformation or such without a patients permission. Its also part of the HIPAA laws, which started about 15 years ago or so. So by law the only way they can find out is if you tell them.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

Doctors aren't allowed by law to release anyones medical records, imformation or such without a patients permission. Its also part of the HIPAA laws, which started about 15 years ago or so. So by law the only way they can find out is if you tell them.

 

Not entirely relevant to an FID/PP background check, but it is important to know that HIPAA-protected medical records can be subpoenaed in certain situations.

[leahcim 680]

Doctors aren't allowed by law to release anyones medical records, imformation or such without a patients permission. Its also part of the HIPAA laws, which started about 15 years ago or so. So by law the only way they can find out is if you tell them.

I forget ecxactly, but don't you sign a release with the FID paperwork package that allows access to your records?

[nj22 2]

In Jersey City they had me sign a form to the effect that I wave my HIPPA rights. I checked "yes" to the therapy question--I saw a therapist a while back (wife had a health scare). I included a note explaining why, and a letter from the doctor stating that I have no mental health issues and nothing should prevent me from owning/operating firearms, along with his phone number. Gave it to the PD and they basically said all that info was probably unnecessary, but helpful. They never called the doctor.

[MrSurfboard 1]

Now part of NICS check as well. When you are institutionalized.

 

And yet the state still makes you fill out the release when you apply for each P2P. More duplication. And you wonder why they take so long.

[revenger 473]

I asked this question a while back and I think it's time for Nappen or someone "in the know" on what exactly do they investigate and what data bases they check if any.

I tried to do some research and what I found was that on the FPID application form with a revision date of 3/05 for the question about being "treated or observed" by any doctor or psychiatrist ( i think question 26) and the only difference that I found was the word "outpatient" was added to the current form where the previous form only stated "inpatient" which would make the question identical to question 24. So something tells me they are up to something.

I also called my insurance provider and requested all my medical records on file from any mental health provider since I had Insurance claims and none of them fall into the wording of the question that might entrap me, "mental or psychiatric condition" .

What needs to be investigated by an attorny for the members of the firearm community of NJ is what databases are search IF ANY and what information do they rely on, How far back are records kept, what other than the mental health records requested on the SP-66 waiver can be checked legally. I feel that this question is requesting you to volunteer information that is not nor can be found out by the police.

I also asked a several troopers about this and explained my concerns and they both said just answer no, I do know they are not lawyers so I'm still weary of this question. I hope Nappen or one of the many experts on these forums can get to the bottom of what do they check, If I can get my records for the last 15 years from my insurance provider , what can they check thaht I can't check myself?

[xshawnxearthx 0]

I'll tell you parts of my story and you can judge from there.

 

Went to a therapist on and off from 13-15. Went due to my parents messy divorce and not being able to cope with it, moving to a new state and a few other things. When I was 15 that chain of events just shit the bed and I was given a few options. The option of least resistance was to go into into a hospital for an evaluation. Was there for 5 days for an evaluation and then sent home basically being told that they weren't sure why I was there. This wasn't a court ordered issue. I answered NO to all mental health questions since all of this happened 17 years ago, none of it was court ordered, I was a MINOR and I was released. Well, received the phone call from the local PD saying it came up. None of the therapy came up, but the hospital evaluation did.

 

I told the officer that it was 17 years ago, just an evaluation and that I was released with nothing wrong. He asked me if I remembered the doctor's name and could get a letter. Told him that it was 17 years ago when I was 15 and had no memory of the doctor's name. Told him I had no idea it would come up, but I would try to contact the hospital and see if I could obtain the files. I went on to tell the officer a brief history without going into details, and that I was a dumb 15 year old kid.... He told me that I didn't need to go into detail but he appreciated it and that he would talk to the chief and see what he says. Couldn't tell me one way or another as to whether it would deny me due to it. I plan to call the hospital Monday and regardless of whether or not they have it, offer to sit down with the chief and the officer in charge of the FID's to see if this will help any.

 

Hopefully I can obtain the files and or sit down and at least state my case. Just goes to show you that it's at their discretion, regardless. Hopefully at the end of the day I'll be able to exercise my rights to bare arms and not have to move to a state that doesn't request mental health records.

[this_is_nascar 162]

I'll tell you parts of my story and you can judge from there.

 

Went to a therapist on and off from 13-15. Went due to my parents messy divorce and not being able to cope with it, moving to a new state and a few other things. When I was 15 that chain of events just shit the bed and I was given a few options. The option of least resistance was to go into into a hospital for an evaluation. Was there for 5 days for an evaluation and then sent home basically being told that they weren't sure why I was there. This wasn't a court ordered issue. I answered NO to all mental health questions since all of this happened 17 years ago, none of it was court ordered, I was a MINOR and I was released. Well, received the phone call from the local PD saying it came up. None of the therapy came up, but the hospital evaluation did.

 

I told the officer that it was 17 years ago, just an evaluation and that I was released with nothing wrong. He asked me if I remembered the doctor's name and could get a letter. Told him that it was 17 years ago when I was 15 and had no memory of the doctor's name. Told him I had no idea it would come up, but I would try to contact the hospital and see if I could obtain the files. I went on to tell the officer a brief history without going into details, and that I was a dumb 15 year old kid.... He told me that I didn't need to go into detail but he appreciated it and that he would talk to the chief and see what he says. Couldn't tell me one way or another as to whether it would deny me due to it. I plan to call the hospital Monday and regardless of whether or not they have it, offer to sit down with the chief and the officer in charge of the FID's to see if this will help any.

 

Hopefully I can obtain the files and or sit down and at least state my case. Just goes to show you that it's at their discretion, regardless. Hopefully at the end of the day I'll be able to exercise my rights to bare arms and not have to move to a state that doesn't request mental health records.

 

 

With all due respect to your situation and although it sounds like really nothing to worry about, I'm glad that a mental health check is required. The last thing I want is some mental-crazed person to be armed with a firearm. Like I said, your situation sounds like it will be easily resolved, but let's not pull the plug on basic checks like this because of these obstacles.

[revenger 473]

xshawnearthx, I wonder what records they checked to find this as it was not court ordered. My concern is similar for something over 25 years ago. before the "updated" question 26 on the current form I had no concerns at all. I have recently been issued my Utah and Florida permits and I would think if I was prohibited they would not have been issued.

[xshawnxearthx 0]

xshawnearthx, I wonder what records they checked to find this as it was not court ordered. My concern is similar for something over 25 years ago. before the "updated" question 26 on the current form I had no concerns at all. I have recently been issued my Utah and Florida permits and I would think if I was prohibited they would not have been issued.

They searched all the shit that HIPPA protects. If 26 wasn't on there, I wouldn't have had a problem. I'm just hoping that they can look past it and that I can obtain my medical records. Who knows, the chief may hear my story and feel I'm not a threat. Knowing my luck, I'll be denied and have to go through all the appeals BS. I'm remaining positive about the situation because the officer could have just told me to piss off and he didn't.

[revenger 473]

I wonder if their is a way for you to obtain your own records and where you would apply for to obtain them, This way you would know what might come up.

[xshawnxearthx 0]

I wonder if their is a way for you to obtain your own records and where you would apply for to obtain them, This way you would know what might come up.

I tried. Contacted the county adjusters officer. Didn't tell them my name, just that I wanted to check my health records before handing in my forms because I was unsure if I would if something would come up. Guy basically told me to just fill it out and if there is a problem they will let me know. BIG help they were.

[revenger 473]

I don't think this topic gets the attention it should, I don't think people who have not had to apply for a change of address realize the impact of this question. The wording on question 26 was changed sometime in 09 and proir to that it only stated "inpatient" which some people might think is reasonable to investigate but "outpaitent" could mean anything and it would be up to you to defend yourself for simply seeking help while a family member is terminally ill or killed in a accident or a veteran coming back from defending the constitution. When a individual seeks assistance from a doctor/counciler should be of no importance to obtaining a NJ FOID nor any business of police officers or legal system since no crimes were commited.and if that person made a statement to a doctor that they were going to harm themselfs or someone else the court would have been involved. A citizen should be able to obtain their personal records, the exact same records as the police seem to be able to. I believe the question 26 dilemma should be addressed before the departments that request additional forms or take more than 30 days to issue since neither of those issues can cause a denial but only a delay. question 26 is and will be a "catch 22" for many including many law enforcment first responders who may have been at the WTC attacks, veterans, or gun owners who have owned firearms for their entire life and now only because they have to fill out a unnecessary change of address run the possibility of being denied or having to check "yes" box for the rest of their lives in NJ.

[xshawnxearthx 0]

Local PD called back today. Officer told me he spoke to the chief and he stated if I could not get a letter from my original doctor, and or the paperwork from the hospital, I would need to have a medical evaluation. Now I just need to find a doctor who will do one for me.