Pillar/glass bedding a 700

[WVisHome 0]

Hey folks,

 

I'm getting ready to attempt to pillar/glass bed my 700 Mountain rifle.

 

 

I have a question...

 

Everywhere I see people talking about how "critical" it is to be sure to drill the holes in the stock for the pillars perfectly.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't quite jive with me. Isn't the idea of using pillars to eliminate any stress? If so, wouldn't drilling the pillar holes out "perfectly" mean a tight fit between the pillar and hole?

 

It seems to me that you'd want the hole oversized slightly so that the pillar can find it's own stress-free resting spot in the epoxy filled hole.

 

 

I'm planning on drilling my stock out using a drill press. I'm going to use a drill bit that fits snug in the holes, chuck that up to the drill, then use that to center/level the stock in the vise, then replace the drill bit and go straight back down. I'm planning to drill it in 2 steps (hole is 9/32", drill 3/8-7/16" then the 9/16").

 

 

The pillars are 9/16" and I figured if it's tight, I'll either "wallow" out the holes using a hand drill and the 9/16" bit, or use a chain saw file.

 

 

I should be fine doing this, right? As long as the pillars aren't binding, and there's not a LOT of excess room, it should be good, shouldn't it?

 

 

 

 

Also, I'm planning the 2 step method....bed the pillars first, then bed the action/bottom metal together afterward.

 

 

 

 

 

Last thing.....my brother has an older 700 Mtn rifle...he said he full-length bedded his (barrel and all). He said it helped a lot to stabilize the thin contour barrel and improved his accuracy. Mine is currently sitting in a B&C Medalist stock with the aluminum bedding block, fully floated and isn't exactly a tack driver. (1.5-2" on a good day, sometimes <1" on a good day with Remington Core-Lokt Express ammo).

 

 

I'll be bedding this in a Boyd's Featherweight thumbhole, and the forearm is completely hogged out, and there are 3 vent slots on either side. My temptation is to bed up to these slots, leave under the slots open, and bed the last 2-3" of the "close" portion of the forearm.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

This is my first attempt, so any suggestions is appreciated. I've been reading instructionals and how-to's for the last 2 months, so I'm confident it's relatively easy.

 

My list:

 

Remington 700 Mountain SS action

Boyd's FT Thumbhole stock

Devcon Plasti-Steel Putty

Stocky's Stocks 9/16" flat-top pre-cut aluminum pillars

Kiwi Neutral shoe polish release agent

[raz-0 1,259]

There are two main important things that being precise takes care of that can be problems. 1st, you don't want the pillars set forward at all because then the lug isn't taking up the recoil, but the screws are. 2nd, you don't want the screws angled, because what strain they do take gets concentrated.

 

Both of the above can wind up with screws snapped off in the action.

[Old School 611]

There are two main important things that being precise takes care of that can be problems. 1st, you don't want the pillars set forward at all because then the lug isn't taking up the recoil, but the screws are. 2nd, you don't want the screws angled, because what strain they do take gets concentrated.

 

Both of the above can wind up with screws snapped off in the action.

 

Right on the money...Bravo Raz-o

[WVisHome 0]

Understood....

 

2 things:

 

- I understand the lug needs to be in contact with the stock. I plan to bed the pillars with the lug touching the stock. BUT....I'm going to bed the action as well, so it doesn't seem to matter if the initial pillar bed job has the lug touching, as I'm going to hog that out and fill it with epoxy anyway. The final result will be a wall of bedding behind the lug, regardless of where the pillars are set initially....am I thinking about this wrong?

 

- Second, I'm planning to bolt the pillars to the action using the action screws, then slipping the assembly into the stock. As long as the pillars don't bind in a dry fit, there isn't any way for them to get angled, right?

[Parker 213]

My thoughts -

 

I have a question...

 

Everywhere I see people talking about how "critical" it is to be sure to drill the holes in the stock for the pillars perfectly.

They need to be straight, otherwise you will have a devil of a time seating the action and cinching up the action screws. The problem is the bottom of the stock is often not straight or square to the surface you're bedding to.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't quite jive with me. Isn't the idea of using pillars to eliminate any stress? If so, wouldn't drilling the pillar holes out "perfectly" mean a tight fit between the pillar and hole?

Pillars are an additional measure to reduce stress, but if your rifle is bedded properly at the lug and rear tang, there should be zero movement or play. The process today is to install the pillars first then bed the action to the stock.

 

It seems to me that you'd want the hole oversized slightly so that the pillar can find it's own stress-free resting spot in the epoxy filled hole.

Leave some play so the pillar surrounded by epoxy aligns with the bolt as you tighten the screw. The seat where the recoil lug resides should prevent any fore and aft movement. Once your pillars are installed your bedding job will go smoother.

 

 

I'm planning on drilling my stock out using a drill press. I'm going to use a drill bit that fits snug in the holes, chuck that up to the drill, then use that to center/level the stock in the vise, then replace the drill bit and go straight back down. I'm planning to drill it in 2 steps (hole is 9/32", drill 3/8-7/16" then the 9/16").

 

 

The pillars are 9/16" and I figured if it's tight, I'll either "wallow" out the holes using a hand drill and the 9/16" bit, or use a chain saw file.I should be fine doing this, right? As long as the pillars aren't binding, and there's not a LOT of excess room, it should be good, shouldn't it?

 

 

Also, I'm planning the 2 step method....bed the pillars first, then bed the action/bottom metal together afterward.

 

Last thing.....my brother has an older 700 Mtn rifle...he said he full-length bedded his (barrel and all). He said it helped a lot to stabilize the thin contour barrel and improved his accuracy. Mine is currently sitting in a B&C Medalist stock with the aluminum bedding block, fully floated and isn't exactly a tack driver. (1.5-2" on a good day, sometimes <1" on a good day with Remington Core-Lokt Express ammo).

Something isn't right here. If you have a composite stock and an aluminum bedding block, with a free-floated barrel, you should be getting better accuracy that 1.5"-2" Other than factory loads, you've tried no reloads tuned to the rifle?

 

Something else -

Try this test: place the butt of this rifle on the floor, place a finger between the forend and the barrel, and slightly ease tension off the front action screw. If there is any movement of the barrel in the action away from the stock, it should be bedded. It does not have a solid bed on the bedding block. When the action is properly bedded it sits tight in the stock.

 

 

I'll be bedding this in a Boyd's Featherweight thumbhole, and the forearm is completely hogged out, and there are 3 vent slots on either side. My temptation is to bed up to these slots, leave under the slots open, and bed the last 2-3" of the "close" portion of the forearm.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

This is my first attempt, so any suggestions is appreciated. I've been reading instructionals and how-to's for the last 2 months, so I'm confident it's relatively easy.

 

My list:

 

Remington 700 Mountain SS action

Boyd's FT Thumbhole stock

Devcon Plasti-Steel Putty

Stocky's Stocks 9/16" flat-top pre-cut aluminum pillars

Kiwi Neutral shoe polish release agent

Modeling clay to plug every orifice in the action! If you don't, you just might be building yourself a Chet Brown glue-in job.

 

 

There is tons of stuff on the internet to research. Here's a couple of how-to's for your reading pleasure:

http://www.mcmfamily...ing_Article.pdf

http://www.6mmbr.com...larbedding.html

[raz-0 1,259]

Understood....

 

2 things:

 

- I understand the lug needs to be in contact with the stock. I plan to bed the pillars with the lug touching the stock. BUT....I'm going to bed the action as well, so it doesn't seem to matter if the initial pillar bed job has the lug touching, as I'm going to hog that out and fill it with epoxy anyway. The final result will be a wall of bedding behind the lug, regardless of where the pillars are set initially....am I thinking about this wrong?

 

- Second, I'm planning to bolt the pillars to the action using the action screws, then slipping the assembly into the stock. As long as the pillars don't bind in a dry fit, there isn't any way for them to get angled, right?

 

OK, look.. you can make the wholes big and sloppy and still have something that works out the gate if you know how to compensate for it. The issue is durability because if you DO do that, then your basically making up all tolerance issues with a) epoxy or b) creating a sloppy bedding situation where the the least variance in tolerances are the front lug or the tang so they get abused first. THe issue with making the epoxy do all the work is that you have to choose a compound, and they either sugar over time, or use a filler material that makes them a bit of a PITA to work with. On the tough but PITA end of filler material, most of them oxidize over time, and the sloppier your bedding job becomes (i.e. hogging it out and using the epoxy like bondo at a maaco shop), the greater your exposure to the elements.

 

Heck, you can do the pillars perfectly and still mess things up, ask me how I know. It's not as simple as it seems to do it well.

 

But as for where to stop bedding, you don't really want to bed forward of where the chamber ends in the barrel.

 

You want minimal chance of messing it up, use the score hi kit, and rent their jig. However, unless you hate your B&C stock, you are wasting your time. THe B&C aluminum beding block is pretty good, and you aren't really going to outperform it in terms of bedding the action as a first time. Heck, maybe not even if you know what you are doing. Your group sizes are not likely to be due to the stock and fitment thereof. IF it is biggest liklihood wit the B&C is some rubbing up front which you can fix with judicious use of abrasives.

[WVisHome 0]

raz,

 

Thanks for the response.

 

 

I hope you don't take my posts as argumentative, I'm simply trying to understand. I may have a fundamental flaw in my view of what I'm accomplishing.

 

 

What do you mean by "creating a sloppy bedding situation where the the least variance in tolerances are the front lug or the tang so they get abused first."?

 

Are you saying the pillar holes should be relatively snug on the pillars when the action (with the pillars bolted on) is placed in the stock against the recoil lug?

 

 

Unfortunately, I've already purchased the Devcon and Stocky's pillars....I'd rather not spend the money for the Score-Hi kit. I had considered renting the drilling jig from Score-Hi, but their pillars are 5/8", and the Stocky's I bought are 9/16". The reason I went with the Devcon was the overwhelming internet chatter that it's one of the better bedding materials. Did I make a mistake?

 

 

And I don't "hate" the B&C stock, I just prefer a thumbhole. I've considered "skim bedding" the aluminum block in my B&C, but I've also considered selling the B&C....I haven't decided yet.

 

 

 

Also, what do you mean by this: "IF it is biggest liklihood wit the B&C is some rubbing up front which you can fix with judicious use of abrasives".

 

Rubbing up front where? I know it's free floating, I can slip a business card all the way to the lug.

 

And I'll bite....how does one mess up after a perfect pillar job?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And to Parker:

 

"Something isn't right here. If you have a composite stock and an aluminum bedding block, with a free-floated barrel, you should be getting better accuracy that 1.5"-2" Other than factory loads, you've tried no reloads tuned to the rifle?"

 

 

No, I do not yet have any reloading gear, so I've only been able to use factory loads (on top of that, I'm limited to what factory loads I can even get locally). As I've said, it does seem to like the Core-Lokts....I've gotten sub-MOA groups out of it, but that's the only one. But even then, it will throw fliers. Say I shoot 6 rounds....it'll put 4 inside an inch, with the other two out to ~2". To be fair, it totally could be me. I'm relatively new to bench shooting, so I'm still learning good bench discipline. (consistent sight picture, breathing, squeezing, etc...)

 

So far I've used:

 

Remington Express 140 gr Core-Lokts

Hornady 139 gr SST's

Federal 150 gr (blue box)

Federal 140 gr Fusion

Federal 140 gr Premium (red box)

 

 

I've got some Winchester Silver tips and a couple others that I don't remember on the way.

 

 

 

 

 

Lastly, regarding the accuracy. I do in fact have the Mountain contour barrel (super thin). From my understanding, this thing can get a little "noodley" when it starts to heat up. I haven't seen any "stringing", but it does throw fliers.

 

 

My brother had to full-length bed his to bring it it, and I've read a lot of people have had to use fore end pressure on these thin barrels.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like I said....I'm not trying to sound ungreatful for the replies. I'm just trying to state what I believe to be true, and am trying to understand where and why I'm wrong.

[raz-0 1,259]

raz,

 

Thanks for the response.

 

 

I hope you don't take my posts as argumentative, I'm simply trying to understand. I may have a fundamental flaw in my view of what I'm accomplishing.

 

I don't take it personally, it's your paperweight if you mess it up real bad and I'm not paying for it.

 

 

What do you mean by "creating a sloppy bedding situation where the the least variance in tolerances are the front lug or the tang so they get abused first."?

 

Are you saying the pillar holes should be relatively snug on the pillars when the action (with the pillars bolted on) is placed in the stock against the recoil lug?

 

 

I'm saying that if you look at a good pillar bedding job, or a factory one that is cheap but designed to not have the rifle come in under warranty, you will see one common thing which is that you want the action screws basically in the middle of the hole in the pillars. On factory jobs, usually the tightest fit item is the front recoil lug as it is the least delicate part that might bear recoil, and the part of the stock interacting with it is meaty and not on display to the end user, so you don't need it to look pretty, just work right. That means you need your bored out holes to be concentric enough to the originals that you don't space the front lug away from the face in the stock when the screws are centered. If you do, you may have pushed it far enough forward that as recoil seats the action further back, the first thing to make contact is one or more of the action screws hitting the wall of the pillar. You also need them to be square to the action as if the action is tilted one way, you wind up essentially pinching the pit of stock between the pillar and the front lug between the lug and the action screw and wind up with the screw and lug under stress the whole time (probably not enough for the lug to care), and THEN add the stress of recoil forces when firing. Tilt them the other way, and you have the bottom of the action screw(s) pushing the front lug forward, and when you fire, you apply the initial recoil impulse to the action screw, and you do so at the end of the longest lever it is capable of being which amplifies the stress force where the screw meets the action.

 

Does it need to be absolutely perfect? No. It needs to be within the margin provided by the tolerance gap between the ID of the pillar and the OD of the action screw. You can even hog out a bit of the stock to make up for some issues with things being level, and move the impact surface in the stock rearward a teeny bit to make sure the stock fitment isn't wedging between the action and lug.

 

Also keep in mind that pillar bedding is primarily to prevent stock crush. IT ensures the action and stock fit together the same way each time and that your POA/POI relationship doesn't shift as the wood of the stock compresses.

 

 

Unfortunately, I've already purchased the Devcon and Stocky's pillars....I'd rather not spend the money for the Score-Hi kit. I had considered renting the drilling jig from Score-Hi, but their pillars are 5/8", and the Stocky's I bought are 9/16". The reason I went with the Devcon was the overwhelming internet chatter that it's one of the better bedding materials. Did I make a mistake?

 

http://www.stockysstocks.com/servlet/the-656/Stocky's-Perfect-Pillar-Driller/Detail This is stocky's solution to concentricity, and is actually a reasonable middle of the road solution, and similar to what a lot of gunsmiths actually use. The score-hi setup is geared towards absolutely precise fit, and targeted more at the gunsmith who wants it to hit the customer looking like it is worth every penny they just charged him. I just happened to know it existed and used it as an example. You have to keep perspective that a good, reasonably priced 1911 smith will take $1500 of parts and for about $1000 plus shipping turn them into a REALLY nice 1911 that FEELS better put together than anything factory. Your average precision rifle smith takes a $500-700 rifle and hands it back to you for $3000-4000 and at most the obvious bits are a new barrel, a new stock, and maybe a visibly different finish, and it likely only improved over factory performance a very small amount. I'm getting something built up off a surgeon action though, I'd like them to use a really nice jig.

 

And I don't "hate" the B&C stock, I just prefer a thumbhole. I've considered "skim bedding" the aluminum block in my B&C, but I've also considered selling the B&C....I haven't decided yet.

 

Also, what do you mean by this: "IF it is biggest liklihood wit the B&C is some rubbing up front which you can fix with judicious use of abrasives".

 

Rubbing up front where? I know it's free floating, I can slip a business card all the way to the lug.

 

While at least you didn't use the dollar bill test. I have yet to meet a stock that is rigid enough and thermally stable enough in combonation with the barrel for a dollar to do it. Myself, I usualy use two business cards, and check the fit warm and cold. Really, ideally, you want the space to be enough to not make contact during barrel whip while firing, but that's a harder goal, and usually settiling for consistent is the next best thing.

 

As for the only reason to be changing stock is if you don't like the stock, it's likely not the source of your accuracy problem. the B&C bed is pretty good, and you aren't going to improve on it much. without knowing what you are doing, doing it REALLY well, and being a good, consistent shot. If you are getting 1.5-2" at 100 yards, it's you, your ammo, or the barrel. Nothign that is going to be helped by changing the stock out unless it is rubbing up front or making a lot of contact when the barrel flexes.

 

And I'll bite....how does one mess up after a perfect pillar job?

 

Easy, when bedding the whole action afterwards, use a bedding compound that is really thick, then don't get the front and rear cinched down to the same degree of tightness using a cinching mechanism that isn't strong enough to not slip a bit while resisting the expansion of the epoxy compound. Ta-da! All of the sudden although your pillars were right without the action bedding, they are now wrong and effectively angled and no longer square to the action as it sits in the stock.

 

Devcon plasti steel makes a TOUGH bedding surface, but it is a PITA to work with.

 

Want to know how fun it is to try and REMOVE it from a stock to fix your mistakes? Like I said, it is definitely TOUGH stuff.

 

And to Parker:

 

"Something isn't right here. If you have a composite stock and an aluminum bedding block, with a free-floated barrel, you should be getting better accuracy that 1.5"-2" Other than factory loads, you've tried no reloads tuned to the rifle?"

 

 

No, I do not yet have any reloading gear, so I've only been able to use factory loads (on top of that, I'm limited to what factory loads I can even get locally). As I've said, it does seem to like the Core-Lokts....I've gotten sub-MOA groups out of it, but that's the only one. But even then, it will throw fliers. Say I shoot 6 rounds....it'll put 4 inside an inch, with the other two out to ~2". To be fair, it totally could be me. I'm relatively new to bench shooting, so I'm still learning good bench discipline. (consistent sight picture, breathing, squeezing, etc...)

 

So far I've used:

 

Remington Express 140 gr Core-Lokts

Hornady 139 gr SST's

Federal 150 gr (blue box)

Federal 140 gr Fusion

Federal 140 gr Premium (red box)

 

 

I've got some Winchester Silver tips and a couple others that I don't remember on the way.

 

 

What caliber is it? None of that stuff is striking me as better than decent ammunition geared towards hunting, and from the weights you 700 is probably not a .308.

 

Lastly, regarding the accuracy. I do in fact have the Mountain contour barrel (super thin). From my understanding, this thing can get a little "noodley" when it starts to heat up. I haven't seen any "stringing", but it does throw fliers.

 

 

My brother had to full-length bed his to bring it it, and I've read a lot of people have had to use fore end pressure on these thin barrels.

 

LOTS of barrel whip. Using fornt pressure to play harmonic tuning games can work wonders, but you do it for a praticular load and don't use anything else when you want accuracy. OR you can do like your brother and bed the whole thing. It doesn't yield maximum improvement, but generally increases performance across a wider range of ammo.

 

 

Like I said....I'm not trying to sound ungreatful for the replies. I'm just trying to state what I believe to be true, and am trying to understand where and why I'm wrong.

 

Everyone has to learn. I think the main issue is that you decided a new stock was the answer, and it likely isn't as the stock you have isn't bad. Thus your odds of affecting an improvement other than an ergonomic one are minimal, and you have introduced opportunity to effectively make things worse by putting a stock on it with a DIY fit that is wrong. Not the best place to spend your money IMO, but it is spent already.

 

Given the gun, I would look first at the shooter. Then look at the ammo and optic in use. THEN the barrel. It's a light weight hunting rifle you bought hunting ammo to run through it, and you are getting acceptable hunting accuracy if your 1.5" to 2" groups are at 100 yards. You want teeny tiny groups, then a beefier barrel is probably in order, which probably requires a new stock, and then some decent hand loaded ammo and a scope that has an adjustable objective or side focus to minimize parallax to cope with you not being a super awesome shooter with machine like repeatable cheek weld (not intended to be an insult, it's just an aid worth every penny if you aren't going to be out there practicing like a machine).

 

Shooting isn't a cheap hobby, but it isn't insanely expensive either.. Home gunsmithing on the other hand...

[WVisHome 0]

I know this is old, but I'm almost finished....I have only the bottom metal left to do.

 

It came out pretty well, considering this was my first attempt. There were some air bubbles in the area under the chamber, but that was to be expected because the bedding compound is over 1/2" thick there. Also, I got a little overzealous with the Dremel tool when cleaning up the edges. When I bed the bottom metal, I'll try to fill in the voids along the top of the stock I made.

 

 

[Parker 213]

Based on those pictures, that stock will never warp now.

 

Is this a 7mm-08?

[WVisHome 0]

 

Is this a 7mm-08?

 

Yep

[Parker 213]

Yep

 

Good cartridge!

[WVisHome 0]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, I used electrical tape to "bush" up the bolts I used to attach the pillars to the action when I bedded them (and when I bedded the action) to make sure that the action screws would be centered in the pillar holes....the action screws will be perfectly centered in the pillar holes and well away from contacting the pillars when assembled.

 

Also...I'm 90% on my way to reloading my own loads. I bought the RCBS Rock Chucker kit and have 2 lbs of powder and 1000 primers. All I have left to get are the dies and projectiles.

 

Any suggestions on a good bullet for the 7mm-08? 130-150 grain range....

[Parker 213]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, I used electrical tape to "bush" up the bolts I used to attach the pillars to the action when I bedded them (and when I bedded the action) to make sure that the action screws would be centered in the pillar holes....the action screws will be perfectly centered in the pillar holes and well away from contacting the pillars when assembled.

 

Also...I'm 90% on my way to reloading my own loads. I bought the RCBS Rock Chucker kit and have 2 lbs of powder and 1000 primers. All I have left to get are the dies and projectiles.

 

Any suggestions on a good bullet for the 7mm-08? 130-150 grain range....

 

Try the 140 gr. Sierra Gameking BT or the Hornady 139 gr. SP. These are a bit more economical to try out than some of the more premium hunting or match bullets. There is a dizzying array of choices in .284" diameter now.

[WVisHome 0]

Thanks for the tip. For now, I have the 120 and 140gr Nosler Ballistic Tips on the way....they're relatively cheap ($18 for 50) and I know they're decent hunting bullets.

 

I'm hoping to cash in on the RCBS 'Bucks or Bullets' rebate...they're offering 500 Speer Grand Slams with a $300 purchase, but they've recently 'reserved the right to issue the $50 cash rebate in lieu of the bullets'.

 

Regarding powders....Varget seems to be the most popular choice followed by 4350, so I got both.

 

 

 

I do have a concern about my bedding job...I'll take pictures and describe the situation tomorrow...long story short, I noticed some 'wet' spots in the bedding the other day, and it seemed soft where it looked wet. I haven't gotten any liquids on it. It's almost as if it's sweating.

[Parker 213]

I don't think you could go wrong with 4350. That's a good all-around slower burning powder that's well-suited for that bore size. Try the Speer 145 gr. bullets as well. Cheap but accurate.

 

My friend's wife took her first moose last October with a factory 7mm-08 shooting 140 gr. Core-Lokt's. It's "enough gun" if you use it correctly. In Maine, shooting distances can be measured in feet sometimes as opposed to yards. (Dressed weight was 903 lbs.!)

 

[WVisHome 0]

Woot!

 

 

 

 

After spending over 3 months in masking tape....my baby is finally back together!

 

 

 

Lesson learned?

 

 

Don't try to smooth out the Devcon wet. Give it about an hour to get a little firm, then trim with a knife.