In NJ can you hold an intruder at gunpoint until LE arrive?

[kman 56]

I like your thinking, I really do. I just dont see how it would apply to a random home intruder.

 

You are right it would not apply in a typical burglary.

 

The original post was can you hold someone at gunpoint, which really is a question of what can you do if they refuse to stay and walk away from you, which ultimately boils down to the question of whether can you fire on them or tackle them.  We are told in New Jersey you can do absolutely nothing to keep them in custody against their will, no matter what they did.  I would not violate that unless my conscience could truly not tolerate the outcome.  Only in the most serious of circumstances would you want to consider firing upon a fleeing criminal.  Nevertheless, in such a circumstance with a truly heinous crime and no doubt as to the perpetrator, it becomes your moral duty as a civilized man or woman to take action and stop them from getting away and doing it again, if you have the ability to do so right then and there.

 

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[woodentoe 14]

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[voyager9 3,434]

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+1

[voyager9 3,434]

You are right it would not apply in a typical burglary. The original post was can you hold someone at gunpoint, which really is a question of what can you do if they refuse to stay and walk away from you, which ultimately boils down to the question of whether can you fire on them or tackle them. We are told in New Jersey you can do absolutely nothing to keep them in custody against their will, no matter what they did.

 

From previous posts and skimming the statute the homeowner is not allowed to use force if the intruder is attempting to flee. Actually, I think it's worded that you can't use force unless they are threatening force themselves.. so in theory they could keep on robbing the place.

 

The question I have is whether verbal intimidation counts as 'force'.. Can the homeowner use the presence of the firearm and vocal/verbal statements to get the intruder to lie down? The intruder may not know how restrictive the law is and may comply.

[Cixelsid 1]

Correct answer: leave no witnesses. Thrown down a kitchen knife with burglars prints all over it. problem solved.

[voyager9 3,434]

Correct answer: leave no witnesses. Thrown down a kitchen knife with burglars prints all over it. problem solved.

 

Me thinks your definition of 'solved' is much different from mine..

[Clintoon Eastwood 2]

According to NJ laws, if you find an intruder in your house it would be easier to just kill yourself.

 

+1 on this comment

[kman 56]

From previous posts and skimming the statute the homeowner is not allowed to use force if the intruder is attempting to flee. Actually, I think it's worded that you can't use force unless they are threatening force themselves.. so in theory they could keep on robbing the place.

 

The question I have is whether verbal intimidation counts as 'force'.. Can the homeowner use the presence of the firearm and vocal/verbal statements to get the intruder to lie down? The intruder may not know how restrictive the law is and may comply.

 

In other words, can you threaten that you will use force on a criminal - force which you cannot actually legally use? From what I understand, you can threaten them that you will use force beyond the force you are able to actually deploy. Although then you run the risk of what if your bluff is called. You also run the risk of provoking them into attacking you, which might end up getting you into a legal trouble also.

 

Interestingly, in New York, you are duty bound to evacuate your own house, if you are able to and you fear serious bodily harm. You can only defend yourself with a firearm if you have no retreat option, even in your house, in New York. At least in New Jersey, you don't have to evacuate your own house at 3 AM on a cold January night because some degenerate broke into your house.

 

One thing's for certain, everyone here saying "just plant evidence on him" or the tired variant of "make sure they are inside when the police come", these comments are ridiculous. The police will almost certainly not be there when you need them, but after the crisis is over they will come in great number and set up an investigation, take forensic evidence, and certainly discover any tampering with the scene and charge you with murder, tampering with evidence, lying to the police, obstruction of justice, all of which are felonies. In a self defense situation, you acknowledge the act (shooting someone) and have to testify to prove your affirmative defense to murder or attempted murder on the basis of self defense. If you lie right off the bat to the police and tamper with a crime scene, you will be found out, your credibility will be destroyed, your lies will be shown to the jury, and you will likely be found guilty of murder or attempted murder.

[kman 56]

According to NJ laws, if you find an intruder in your house it would be easier to just kill yourself.

 

Ha! Actually killing yourself, or attempting to, is against the law!

[Howard 538]

How about this?

 

[JrzyGuy30 0]

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't have that option. My daughter and her son live down the hall, so I have to defend the upper floor of the house, no matter what.

 

Same scenario when I have my daughter. Master suite is on the other end of the house upstairs down and open hallway and I have to go out.

[voyager9 3,434]

In other words, can you threaten that you will use force on a criminal - force which you cannot actually legally use? From what I understand, you can threaten them that you will use force beyond the force you are able to actually deploy. Although then you run the risk of what if your bluff is called. You also run the risk of provoking them into attacking you, which might end up getting you into a legal trouble also.

 

If they 'call my bluff' then one of two things would happen: 1) They attempt to Flee. To which I cannot exercise force. 2) They attempt to 'attack', which I am legally allowed to defend myself. The question then becomes, how does a homeowner in that position tell the intent of the intruder. Are they attempting to flee, or attack? If the homeowner says something like "Get on the ground, Any movement will be considered a threat of force" does cover the homeowner if the intruder was to attempt to get up?

 

My goal, in any confrontation is to protect my family and end the situation as quickly and safely as possible. I'd rather replace my TV then clean blood off my floor. The more I think about it, the 'what ifs' surrounding a homeowner-initiated confrontation the more I think shelter and protect in place is the better bet. Get the family to a defensible position and any entry on that position by the intruder is a threat.

 

Of course, that's easier said then done.. during the evening we might be spread out throughout the house and direct confrontation may be required.

[Walt of Destiny 412]

The best confrontation is the one you don't get into. I also realize that often that decision isn't up to you.

 

You are either trained or you aren't. And if I am not trained, there isn't any material possession that is worth putting my family through the emotional toll caused by any of these encounters. Protect your family by retreating and being prepared to defend them. Let them take what they will, if they get past the trained 100 pound German Shepard.

 

Can't stress enough how much inner peace my dog provides me and my family. Get a dog, train with them. Be prepared. CCK9 if you're interested. Are dogs a hassle? Maybe, any less than getting safe, a gun, learning how to use it and dealing with the ridiculous laws in this state? Nope. Home owners insurance was ok as long as the dog has a "K9 Good Citizen" certification which you should get anyway.

 

The aftermath(legal and emotional) of actually using your weapon to defend yourself in PRNJ is almost always worse for you than anything short of physical harm to you or your loved ones.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BarkNBite 15]

All this is pretty funny.....IMO to read but truth be told with no Castle D. in place here.....we're SOL and NJ lawmakers love it that way.

[kman 56]

This is why they enacted the castle doctrine in most states. Really it is unreasonable to force you to have to make these kind of calculations because someone decides to break into your house. It is better for society to put the public on notice - break into a house and you are presumed to have intent to commit serious bodily harm and are likely to get shot. It is good policy all around. Burglary ought to be an ultra high risk "profession".

 

The Castle Doctrine statutes do not say you can shoot anyone who breaks into your house. What it does is it shifts the burden of proof - the presumption is that anyone breaking into your house intends to harm you, unless the state proves to the contrary that they were no threat to you. If it is clear that the person posed no threat and you shot them in your house, then under the castle doctrine it is still murder and you still go to jail. There always needs to be a threat. It is just that in New Jersey, you have to prove the threat existed. In castle doctrine states, the state has to prove there was no threat.

 

The way I see it, since nobody is going to be able to comply with the letter of the law under a stressful circumstance like this, follow your inner morality, your inner instinct to protect yourself, your loved ones. Don't do something that doesn't seem right to you. Your own morality is the only thing you will have in a stressful situation. And if you do get in trouble afterward for what you did, you can at least state to the prosecutor, judge, jury, your god, your family, everyone, that you did what you believe is right and you stand behind it 100%. Then if they charge you, can at least get on the stand, testify honestly, and see if you can get judged correctly by 12.

[Howard 538]

Don't forget that if the intruder in your home is gay or black and you shoot them that in NJ you are probably guilty of a hate crime too!

[silverado427 10,722]

I would like to know why A SCUMBAG breaking into your house has any rights at all. Why is it not one D bag politician will will bring this topic up. ???

[BarkNBite 15]

BECAUSE.....................it's NEW JERSEY.......and they are our elected officials.

[Walt of Destiny 412]

Don't forget that if the intruder in your home is gay or black and you shoot them that in NJ you are probably guilty of a hate crime too!

 

What if he's black AND gay?

 

[mcm308 0]

Retreat is not an option with an infant in another room. In my case.. here is how it goes down.. our bedroom and babies room is across from each other at the end of the hall... hall light switch right outside my door.. flip the hall light on a take a position to defend the hallway.. perp at this point will most likely abort from the light.. if he proceeded to enter hallway.. he will see a 10mm pointed at him from 15 feet away as I am hollering to get on the floor hands over his head.. perp now has 3 choices to make.. turn around and run which hopefully he does at first sight of gun.... he will get on the floor and obey.. by this time.. Wifie already has been on the phone with 911 from the bedroom and police should be arriving so hopefully I don't have to detain perp at gunpoint for to long... or the perp decides to charge the hallway ending his life. At that point , my babies life is in danger and game is over.

 

Molon Labe

 

 

[Howard 538]

What if he's black AND gay?

 

Then by law you MUST show him where all the valuables are AND give him the gun, its big time jail time if you fail to do both of these.

[va_bank 0]

Correct answer: leave no witnesses. Thrown down a kitchen knife with burglars prints all over it. problem solved.

 

...and a million other problems started.

[DTtuner 21]

The thing is that unless you are a LEO if you hold him you may be charged with an illegal arrest or even kidnapping - stupid laws. That is why the best thing is probably empty the magazine into him. As the cops in NY told my dad in the 1970's - feel free to have a gun in your house and shoot anyone BUT before you call us be sure to a) drag him inside of the house if you shot him outside, and B) if he turns out to be unarmed place a kitchen knife in his dead hands before we get there.

 

For all the Ladies "facepalming" and gasping your panties off... this is the same thing I was told by more than one LEO, recently.

Simply the world we live in.

 

The reality is if a criminal enters our home, and we hold them at gunpoint or wound them, we easily be either sued into homelessness, or goto jail for the rest of our lives.... all because a CRIMINAL invaded YOUR HOME.

[Walt of Destiny 412]

Never, ever take legal advice from a LEO. *

 

*with all due respect.

[va_bank 0]

Ha! Actually killing yourself, or attempting to, is against the law!

 

Yet, if you succeed - this solution offers the least legal hassle out of all possible scenarios. I would, however, prefer to just move to a state with a castle doctrine. That said, although I do keep a shotgun for home defense, the probability of someone breaking into my house with me there is close to zero, as is for many people here. It's more of a fear than danger.

[Trunk 4]

I would like to know why A SCUMBAG breaking into your house has any rights at all. Why is it not one D bag politician will will bring this topic up. ???

Assemblyman Rumana (District 40) has repeatedly sponsored the "New Jersey Right to Home Defense Law" bill.

 

http://www.njleg.sta...000/1906_I1.PDF

 

It outlines circumstances under which people are presumed to have a "reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury" in their home or residence. Importantly, it explicitly provides civil and criminal immunity for people who are justified in their use of force.

 

I have no idea why it doesn't get more support, though.

[kahout 0]

 

I have no idea why it doesn't get more support, though.

 

Because most of the criminals in Trenton can emphasize with the criminals in the general public!

[ryan_j 0]

So this happened to a friend of mine, and I thought of this thread.

 

He was minding his business in his own home when he found some guy drunk and high in his foyer. He drew his 357 mag and the guy said, "shoot me I don't care."

 

My friend held the intruder at gunpoint, called the cops, they came in guns drawn and took away the perp. Asked if my friend wanted to press charges.

 

Incidentally this may not be typical since my friend is retired NJDOC (EJSP) but I don't think he told them that.

[Turtle Shell 0]

Unfortunately, I don't have that option. My daughter and her son live down the hall, so I have to defend the upper floor of the house, no matter what.

 

Similar scenario here but worse.  I have family members counting on me to be their first line of defense until police arrives living upstairs and downstairs.  So it would irresponsible of me to just pick one room and defend one location and wait it out while calling 911.  And anyone that has called 911 before knows, a police department is a modest-size office protecting an entire town/city, they are not superman, they will not pop out of your bushes at the sign of trouble.

 

What some people need to understand is that lot of people have a firearm for defense not only for yourself, or your significant other whom would be right next to you in the middle of the night (unless fighting) but also other family members living throughout your home.  Depending on the size of your home and number of vulnerable family members, immediately jumping out of bed and venturing out with your gun drawn might be necessary.

 

I guess the main question is this:  Will you risk jail to guarantee your family's safety?  Will you risk your family's safety to guarantee you stay out of jail?  Will you pick certain family members to protect and hope for the best for the rest?

 

Depressing questions I'm sure most NJ gun owner has thought of at least in passing.

 

So remember, even though hiding/holding out while waiting for police would be the smartest/best for singles living alone and couples with no children, but for some people in certain situations, confronting the intruder is a necessary thing to do.  Which leads to the core of this thread; now that you have confronted him/her/them; do you shoot them, secure them at gunpoint or do you let them go so they can go home and brew in anger at how you showed them up with a gun and plan a revenge plot.

[themuna 0]

 We had Zimmerman down here shoot someone and his life is ruined and he cried himself to sleep in jail every night. I bet if he had it to do all over again he would just call the police and go home.

 

 

Completely different issue I think.  That kid wasn't in his home at all and he was defenseless.  Complete example of intolerable racial profiling.