2nd hangun purchase within a month.

[anutile 0]

     Hopefully someone will be able to answer this question.

 

 

    I am in the 2nd week of waiting for my nics check to go through on a purchase from an ffl. I now see a gun available from a member that I would like to buy.

 

 

   Could I make a "private" purchase while I'm waiting for my 1st purchase to clear nics??

[Brownie^HP 6]

No, Its 1 pistol every 30 days!

[BullzeyeNJ 104]

nope

[Purple Patrick 638]

Pay him for it and just process the paper work when the other one is done. Don't take possession untill the permits cleared!

 

 

Sent from my hidden under ground bunker between Taco Bell and the dry cleaner

[Underdog 1,593]

No, you wouldn't be able to purchase a gun within the 30-31 day limit. 

 

However, I thought that maybe I could purchase the private sale and then I would have 30 days once the notification for the NICS came back to pickup the one at the dealer.  However , the 30 days starts when you first apply to buy the handgun.  So, in reality, you would only have about 12 days to pick it up (since NICS are now about 18 days I have been told).  And, once you pick it up, that's when the one-gun-a-month kicks in, so effectively it would be 48 days after you agreed to buy from the dealer.  If the 30 days had started when you were notified to pick it up, then you could have picked up the other one, as long as you did it before being notified and you would have been still able to use the NICS check at the dealer to pickup the 2nd one before it expired  That would have been the shortest time to have  both in possession.  However, its a NO GO.  It is bass ackwards, as usual.  You should either get the 30 days to start once NICS notifies the dealer you have been approved, OR you should have the 30 days for OGAM start the day you applied for the firearm at the dealer and the NICS was faxed in.  But, as usual, it is NJ so honest law-abiding gun owners get screwed and it creates additional delays and hardships.  And now you have to pay the dealers up front while you wait for your merchandise.  And who's to know if a dealer with a stack of say 50 NICS that he is waiting on is going to call you the instant it comes in.  IF they are busy and get a big batch of them I can certainly see them building even more time into it.  I would be surprised if some dealers aren't already considering/implementing a storage fee for the NICS wait period.

 

Imagine if you had two guns from a dealer, and with the 18 day nics wait time and 30 days.... You go in to purchase and nics is faxed... wait 18 days... Then you have to wait another 30 days.  After that, you would have to wait for the NICS to come back in.... So, it could take 66 plus days, easily for you to buy two guns.  And, with the expiration of permits... it would seem you would ONLY be able to use only 4 permits total with a renewal, as the 5th gun would put you at around Day 187.

[Babyface Finster 45]

Pay him for it and just process the paper work when the other one is done. Don't take possession untill the permits cleared!

 

 

This is what you do.  Pay in full (or whatever the seller agrees to), fill out and both sign a proper bill of sale and pick up the gun when the timing is correct.  The understanding is generally that if you have a problem with your paperwork and can't complete the sale, you either forfeit what you have paid or take responsibility for finding a new buyer.

 

You can go as far as taking some part of the gun with you if you're uneasy about paying upfront.  No reason you can't take immediate possesion of magazines, slide, barrel, etc.  Just leave the frame for when your OGAM is up.  Naturally this doesn't work so well if it's a revolver.\

 

You can also pay in full and have the gun transferred to an FLL to hold for you, but that seems like wasted money to me.

[Underdog 1,593]

You could make the purchase, but then you would have to pay the dealer to have another NICS check and wait another 48 days AFTER 30 days are up from picking up the private sale.  That would be a lot longer wait and double NICS fee.  Did you put money down on the one at the dealer?  Which do you want more?  Can you arrange to pickup the private one 31 days after picking up the dealer one?   And, based on title, that is assuming you are trying to pickup 2 handguns.

[anutile 0]

      Yes, I paid 1/2 the purchase price to the ffl. It's no big deal, I'll just wait 30 days after I p/u the gun.

 

 

      Thanks for all the help anyway...

[nuclearheli 40]

He can do it here is why.

 

NJSP consider your NICS check valid 30 days from the day you get your "proceed" response. This flies in the face of the FBI and ATF's guidance of the Brady law but here is why. New Jersey does not initiate a background check when your FFL faxes in your NICS check form. That form is processed and put in a pile awaiting a State Police agent to perform the NICS check. Technically the FBI considers the initiation of a NICS check to be the date that the inquiry is made in their database. In the real world outside of New Jersey the date initiated is actually the date that your FFL makes the inquiry.  In New Jersey they make the inquiry when your NICS is actually processed. This is how NJ is getting away with using the proceed date, it's a technicality.  The actual process of completing your background check takes minutes, your application for NICS is what is sitting for weeks waiting. So if you submitted a fax for NICS two weeks ago and got a response today, that means that your official FBI inquiry was today because that is when the SP actually processed your request. 

 

That being said you can simply buy the gun privately and use one of your permits. Make sure you mail out the copies to the State Police and Local PD within 5 days. Then wait for the NICS to come back on your other gun and pick it up after 30 days has expired.

 

It's that simple. The other options posted here are also good ones. 

[Underdog 1,593]

Well, if that is true, then I have been inconvenienced by my lazy-ass local gun store because they couldn't bother to check.

[PK90 3,570]

What do you suppose the dealer's ATF IOI will say if the transfer date is over 30 days from the customer's initial signed date? Good luck explaining that one. It will be a violation against your license. Do not rely on what the NJSP tell you unless it is in writing. Follow the law as it is written.

 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[nuclearheli 40]

 

 

Yes, I contacted NJSP Firearms Division and they are stating that the NICS check is good for 30 days after the proceed date.  The approval / initiation date that NJSP is using is the date that they pulled your NICS off the FAX pile, 15 to 20 days after your ATF 4473 form. 

 

My FFL made me sign and date the ATF 4473 form on the initiation date (NICS day 1).  They also signed and dated the form, on this exact date.  My FFL contacted NICS on this exact date to initiate the NICS check.  This date is the initiation date used in the federal laws. 

 

NJSP is violating federal law by doing this.  The ATF clearly states, in the Brady Bill FAQ question 45, that the NICS initiation date is the date your fill out the ATF form 4473.  The ATF / federal government ONLY KNOWS the ATF form 4473 date.  That is the date that the NICS check (in the firearm owner's name) was initiated by the firearm purchaser. 

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brady-law.html#nics-valid-term-details

Q: Is a NICS check valid for 30 days from when the check was initiated, or from when a “proceed” is issued?

The NICS check is valid for 30 days from when the check was initiated.

Example: A NICS check is initiated on December 15, 2004. The FFL receives a “proceed” response from NICS on December 17, 2004. The purchaser does not return to pick up the firearm until January 16, 2005. The FFL must conduct another NICS check before transferring the firearm to the purchaser.

Example: A NICS check is initiated on December 15, 2004. The FFL receives a “delayed” response from NICS; no further response is received. The purchaser does not return to pick up the firearm until January 16, 2005. The FFL must conduct another NICS check before transferring the firearm to the purchaser.

[27 CFR 478.124©]

 

Federal law 478.124 clearly details the requirements established for firearms purchasing.  The date of purchase is the date you "attempt" to buy the handgun.  If you are denied, or delayed, or otherwise NICS is unable to respond (NJ style), the initiation date used is the one on the ATF form:

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.124

 

(iv) Shall comply with the requirements of ? 478.102 and record on the form the date on which the licensee contacted the NICS, as well as any response provided by the system, including any identification number provided by the system.

 

(4) The licensee shall identify the firearm to be transferred by listing on the Form 4473 the name of the manufacturer, the name of the importer (if any), the type, model, caliber or gauge, and the serial number of the firearm.

 

(5) The licensee shall sign and date the form if the licensee does not know or have reasonable cause to believe that the transferee is disqualified by law from receiving the firearm and transfer the firearm described on the Form 4473.

 

 

 

I am sorry but I need to disagree with your analysis. You are interpreting the ATF FAQ page, not the federal law. I am not supporting what the NJSP is doing but I must say they are not in violation of federal law, at least the laws that are on the books now.

 

First, the Brady Law has nothing at all to do with what we are discussing. The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 (Brady Act), Public Law 103-159, not to over simplify it, only calls for the use of NICS for firearm transactions. It doesn't specifically call out details like the 30 day validity of the NICS record.

 

Second, NICS. NICS is 28 CFR Part 25 [AG Order No. 2186–98] RIN 1105–AA51 National Instant Criminal Background Check System Regulation and is managed and maintained by the FBI not specifically or only for use in firearm transfers. It is used as a result of the Brady Act. Again, the federal law governing NICS, 28 CFR Part 25 does not call out a specific period of time that NICS inquires are valid for.

 

Lastly, Title 27—Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms specifically 178.102 does address how the ATF manages NICS for firearm licenses. And finally that is the governing law pertaining to the question on this post.

 

First of all section 178.102(1), for clarification states; Before the completion of the transfer, the licensee has contacted NICS; as it references the transfer of a firearm.

Second and most important,  section 178.102(3)©

 

© Time limitation on NICS checks. A NICS check conducted in accordance with paragraph (a) of this section may be relied upon by the licensee only for use in a single transaction, and for a period not to exceed 30 calendar days from the date that NICS was initially contacted. If the transaction is not completed within the 30-day period, the licensee shall initiate a new NICS check prior to completion of the transfer

 

The important thing to remember is NICS is the FBI's system for criminal background checks. Here is how the state police does it. Your NICS check form is faxed to them (NICS NOT CONTACTED YET). When it's your turn to have your request processed the state police perform their own background check for state related violations and mental health checks. (NICS NOT YET CONTACTED). After completing all the state required checks NICS IS CONTACTED, NICS provides an immediate response (let's assume it is proceed), and your NJSP POC NICS check is done. Your FFL is then contacted, hopefully immediately by the investigating person and issues the proceed code. 

 

Your NICS check clock started the moment that NJSP contacted the FBI NICS system, the very last thing they do.

 

The ATF FAQ's only provide guidance in accordance with the CFR on "when" your FFL can contact NICS. That guidance states;

 

FFLs should contact NICS after the transferee has completed Section A of the ATF Form 4473

 

Section A of 4473 is not a completed 4473 and is the section that provides the necessary personal information in order to even initiate a request for a NICS check, and also your responses to the standard "are you a criminal" questions. Without the first part of section A you cannot submit a NICS check and if in the second part of section A your client indicates they are a criminal there is no need to even proceed to NICS.

 

The information above is provided as a result of studying the relevant federal laws and CFR's and discussions with regulatory bodies as to the interpretation of these requirements.

 

I am afraid the State Police is right, they are not breaking any laws.

[PK90 3,570]

I believe, and it has been stated before, that the 30 days starts when the licensee contacts NICS, not when the NJSP feel like contacting them. 

 

One can say that the 30 days never starts, as NJ Licensees never contact NICS directly.

 

Or one can say that the 30 days start when the NJSP contacts NICS, but they never actually do.  They do the check themselves.

 

So, in NJ, we refer to the people who do the checks as NICS, therefore, the 30 days starts when Part A is signed, IMO.

 

BTW, I put a call into my IOI to clarify.

[PK90 3,570]

From the Sept. 2011 ATF Newsletter >

 

How to comply with recordkeeping requirements when there is a change to the response initially received by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) during a background check for a firearm transfer pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 922(t)

 
Federal law requires, with limited exceptions, that Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) conduct background checks prior to transferring a firearm to a nonlicensee. Also, the FFL is required to record the initial response received from the National Instant Criminal Back-ground Check System (NICS) or the appropriate State agency in a Point of Contact (POC) State on the ATF Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record (Form 4473). Generally, an FFL may rely on a NICS or POC check conducted only for use in a single transaction and for a period not to exceed 30 calendar days from the date that NICS or POC was originally contacted. If the “proceed” response and the firearm transfer occur within 30 days of the date NICS or the POC were originally contacted, the FFL is not required to complete a new Form 4473. However, if the “proceed” response is received or the purchaser picks up the firearm more than 30 days after the initial background check was conducted, the licensee must complete a new Form 4473 and conduct a new NICS or POC check.

 

[nuclearheli 40]

From the Sept. 2011 ATF Newsletter >

 

How to comply with recordkeeping requirements when there is a change to the response initially received by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) during a background check for a firearm transfer pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 922(t)

 

Federal law requires, with limited exceptions, that Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) conduct background checks prior to transferring a firearm to a nonlicensee. Also, the FFL is required to record the initial response received from the National Instant Criminal Back-ground Check System (NICS) or the appropriate State agency in a Point of Contact (POC) State on the ATF Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record (Form 4473). Generally, an FFL may rely on a NICS or POC check conducted only for use in a single transaction and for a period not to exceed 30 calendar days from the date that NICS or POC was originally contacted. If the “proceed” response and the firearm transfer occur within 30 days of the date NICS or the POC were originally contacted, the FFL is not required to complete a new Form 4473. However, if the “proceed” response is received or the purchaser picks up the firearm more than 30 days after the initial background check was conducted, the licensee must complete a new Form 4473 and conduct a new NICS or POC check.

 

I don't understand how this statement is relevance of the quote above.  It deals with a "change to the response initially received", I don't believe that question was even asked.

[nuclearheli 40]

I believe, and it has been stated before, that the 30 days starts when the licensee contacts NICS, not when the NJSP feel like contacting them. 

 

One can say that the 30 days never starts, as NJ Licensees never contact NICS directly.

 

Or one can say that the 30 days start when the NJSP contacts NICS, but they never actually do.  They do the check themselves.

 

So, in NJ, we refer to the people who do the checks as NICS, therefore, the 30 days starts when Part A is signed, IMO.

 

BTW, I put a call into my IOI to clarify.

 

At the sake of sounding difficult I again disagree. The law is very clear, there is no need for interpretation. Again it states:

 

not to exceed 30 calendar days from the date that NICS was initially contacted.

 

It does not say "who" is the one contacting the NICS system, just that the clock starts when NICS was originally contacted. 

 

You are not contacting "NICS" when you file your fax with NJSP. According to my contact at the SP contacting the FBI's NIC system is the last thing done and the FFL is notified directly by phone following completion check which ends with NICS.

 

As far as I am concerned given the clarity of the law and the response from the NJSP the moment I receive the "proceed" response by phone with the transaction number that is day 1 of the thirty day clock for NICS. 

[PK90 3,570]

Well, hopefully the checks won't reach 30 days. 

 

So far my IOI believes that the clock starts when the NJSP does the check, but she will clarify it in writing in a few days.

[nuclearheli 40]

From the Sept. 2011 ATF Newsletter >

 

Generally, an FFL may rely on a NICS or POC check conducted only for use in a single transaction and for a period not to exceed 30 calendar days from the date that NICS or POC was originally contacted. If the “proceed” response and the firearm transfer occur within 30 days of the date NICS or the POC were originally contacted, the FFL is not required to complete a new Form 4473. However, if the “proceed” response is received or the purchaser picks up the firearm more than 30 days after the initial background check was conducted, the licensee must complete a new Form 4473 and conduct a new NICS or POC check.

 

PK90, can you give me a reference in the law to the statement highlighted above? I have been through the ATF CFR over and over again but I cannot find anywhere where they reference the start of the 30 day clock after originally contacting the POC.  That doesn't seem to exist in the laws. A reference would be handy if you have one.

[PK90 3,570]

27 CFR 478.102© but it does not refer to POC.

 

Auto correct changed ( c ) above

[nuclearheli 40]

27 CFR 478.102© but it does not refer to POC.

 

Auto correct changed ( c ) above

 

Ok so I feel confident I am starting my 30 day clock at the right time. That paragraph is word for word exactly as it appears in the federal law. 

 

If you read through the comment resolution prior to the final rule in 1998 (approximately 40 comments), the opinion of the rule makers was to limit the time period to 30 days as a hard maximum limit to avoid having "stale" information provided from the database. This was their opinion after hearing comments requesting increasing the time limit. Basically most if not all of the comments to change the rule were ignored, go figure.

[PK90 3,570]

But when the ATF comes to my house in 5 years, and I did a gun pickup on day 32 with a signed ATF 4473 32 days earlier, what physical evidence do I have that I did a legal transfer?   Where is the NJSP NICS contact date, that I can show to the ATF and prove that I am legal? 

 

Remember, in PRNJ YOU MUST prove it's a legal transfer.  The FFL could be out of business.  No problem, just call up the NJSP and they've got your back in court.  Surely.... 

Ask for a copy of the 4473, as the date of the check will be on it as the State Transaction Number. EX: 2013-14300258, ie. the 258th check of May 23rd, 2013.

[nuclearheli 40]

+1 PK90 Your transaction number is the key to the whole thing. You wouldn't get a firearm transferred from me if the date of the transaction number is older than 30 calendar days old.  I wouldn't risk my license or a court appearance so one of my customers can extend their NICS beyond the legal limit by a few days. 

 

Besides I don't think the ATF would come to your house anyway. The only way they would find a problem with the dates is when they perform an inspection of the FFL. IMO the FFL is the one that is on the hook if the numbers don't match. I don't know any FFL's that would risk it for anyone. 

[nuclearheli 40]

28 days on NICS for me.  This is a personal problem for me, not just a theoretical discussion. 

 

Sounds like your a victim of another problem, perhaps a lost submission or your FFL has an issue. I have never had one take longer than 15 days..

[nuclearheli 40]

Yes, this appears to be the case.  But I don't care what the problem was for my 28 day NICS wait, nor does the law. 

 

Nuclearheli, let me ask you 1 simple question.  When I sign my ATF 4473 and the dealer "sends it in to NICS", where do they fax it to?  A NICS phone number, correct?  The FFL is faxing in your NICS request on the day you sign ATF 4473, into the NICS system.  You will have a VERY hard time proving this is not "day 1" of the Brady Bill 30 day limit in a court of law.  

 

Suppose this: a judge has a signed copy, by the firearm owner and the FFL, of an ATF form 4473 on Day 1.  NICS takes 28 days, and the firearm owner picks up on day 32.  You think that the judge will *NOT* see this as more than 30 days after the initiation date?  If so, we see things differently.  I disagree, and I think federal judges and NJ superior court judges in this liberal state would *always* err on the side of Brady Bill caution.  I doubt you would find a judge, ATF form in hand, that would rule this is a legal sale on day 32. 

 

Good question but incorrect assumption. No, when I fax in a NICS request it ultimately goes to the NJSP, not NICS. In this state I as an FFL never have direct access to NICS, we deal through the NJSP, the middleman. New Jersey is a Point of Contact state (POC) which is a state that assumes the responsibility of compliance to the Brady Law. The Brady law simply expands the role of NICS (FBI's Crime Database) to firearm purchases. 

 

Please review Post #13 of this thread. 

 

Again NICS is the FBI's system and the State Police contact NICS when they actually process your request. Because of their quoted "Backlog" of requests a fax request sent in by me to get a background check sits in a pile waiting it's turn to be processed. Once my form is actually picked up and processed the last thing NJSP do is contact the FBI's database, NICS, to complete my requested background check. Prior to contacting NICS they perform a check of their own databases for state related background information.

 

The law states that a NICS record is not considered "STALE" for 30 days after the request was initiated. That is 30 days after the NICS database was accessed. So for example, your FFL faxed in a request to NJSP for a background check on the 1st of May and a proceed response was received by the FFL on the 15th of May, that means the NICS database was contacted by the NJSP on your behalf on May 15th. That is how the NJSP is correct when they insist that they are not violating federal law by considering the NICS check "Not Stale" for 30 days from the day they contact you with the proceed response. Because it's the same day that the NICS check was initiated (into the FBI's NICS database).

 

To put it into prospective and give you even more insight into my frustration as an FFL I have purchased and run a fairly expensive software system which has been adopted by the ATF to run my firearms business. Of course I still must maintain a "bound book". Many FFL's use the same system. There is a component of that system which allows my computer to contact NICS DIRECTLY to perform a background check in seconds. I cannot use this component of my software system in New Jersey. That's because New Jersey petitioned the ATF to become a POC state so they can do the background checks and add additional checks that they feel is necessary.

 

Here is the kicker to that. The ATF federal laws also "suggest" that states provide their legal databases to the FBI to be incorporated into the NICS system. Again, the law "suggests" that states do this. New Jersey does not do this therefore the federal database system, NICS, has no knowledge of NJ violations and mental health issues. By keeping NJ's information in NJ the state has guaranteed that they will always be the middleman in the background check process, and of course always generate a revenue stream. Because the federal NICS system is FREE, well not free you already paid for it in your taxes.

 

There happens to be a bill on Christie's desk that would require NJ to submit their records to the national database which hopefully will be a prelude to NJ dropping it's role as a POC state and allowing NJ Licensed Retailers to contact NICS directly thus eliminating this entire mess. That probably won't happen however since the NJSP has been insisting that they are developing their own E-NICS (electronic NICS) access system for NJ retailers that they claim will allow us to access background check information instantly. Another redundant waste of money since the FBI already has a system that allows for instant access. Just another bridge to nowhere.

[tony357 386]

Good question but incorrect assumption. No, when I fax in a NICS request it ultimately goes to the NJSP, not NICS.

 

The state mafia.. 

[PK90 3,570]

Thank you, that is very good information.  The problem is that my FFL would not give me a copy of the NICS paperwork, but I didn't press the issue. There was an explanation in one of the FFL Newsletters that told the dealer that he can give one.

 

Is the NICS check date put on the ATF form? DATES ON THE FORM (not including birth and expiration) The date you signed the form, the date the NJ NICS performed the check, the date you were approved if pending the date you resigned the form, and the date the firearm was delivered.

[nuclearheli 40]

Your ATF form 4473 must have the NICS response code on it. When you sign it take note of the number it's really easy or ask your FFL for a copy.

 

The response code always starts with the year followed by the day of the month then by a 5 digit sequential number.

 

Example. 201314700087 is a valid response code. The proceed was issued on the 147th day of the month (today may 28th) in the year 2013, and this was the 87th response code issued today.

 

To find out how long it's good for add 30 to 147 and you get the 177th day of the year 2013, June 26th