VA gun in my house

[Melgamatic 66]

Here's the situation:

 

A close friend at work here in NYC owns a handgun legally in VA, where his parents live. He has all the necessary VA permits, bought the handgun legally, but cannot own it in his NYC apartment, so he just leaves it in his parents' house in VA.

 

Since I live in NJ, and go to the range all the time, we figured it would be great if he "loaned" it to me, I kept it in NJ with my guns, and if he wanted to go to the range with me I could bring it along and shoot it legally, since I have the NJ FID card.

 

He doesn't want to sell it, he may someday live somewhere where he can have it with him again, and he likes it. So, he just wants me to hold onto it for him.

 

Sounds simple, but what rules are we breaking?

 

If we can do it, how does he transport it from VA to NJ? He can legally have it in VA, but not in NJ, so does he need to mail it to me?

 

The original idea was simple, but I'm worried that gun laws make it difficult in practice.

 

-Melgamatic

[Chad 3]

All firearms transported through the State of New Jersey:

The following guidelines are provided in order to assist law enforcement officers in applying New Jersey's firearms laws to persons who are transporting firearms through the State of New Jersey.

 

New Jersey laws governing firearms permits, purchaser identification cards, registration and licenses do not apply to a person who is transporting the firearm through this State if that person is transporting the firearm in a manner permitted by federal law, 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.

 

This federal law permitting interstate transportation of a firearm applies only if all of the following requirements are met:

 

A.

The person's possession of the firearm was lawful in the state in which the journey began;

 

B.

The person's possession of the firearm will be lawful in the state in which the journey will end;

 

C.

The person is transporting the firearm for lawful purpose

 

D.

The firearm is unloaded

 

E.

The firearm is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle

 

F.

The ammunition is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle

 

G.

If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console;

 

H.

The person is not

 

 

1.

a convicted felon

 

2.

a fugitive from justice an addict or unlawful user of drugs, or

 

3.

an illegal alien

 

 

I

The person has not

 

 

1.

been adjudicated to be a mental defective

 

2.

been committed to a mental institution

 

3.

been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces, or

 

4.

 

renounced his United States Citizenship

 

 

 

 

A person who is transporting a firearm though the State of New Jersey in the manner permitted by person's possession 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, see Section II above, need not give notice.

 

Procedures for Investigation of Conduct Involving the Possession or Transportation of Firearms

 

A.

An officer who reasonably suspects that a person is transporting a firearm in violation of New Jersey law should make reasonable inquiries in order to confirm or dispel that suspicion.

 

B.

In a case where circumstances reasonably indicate that the person's possession and transportation of the firearms my be permitted by 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, the officer should make reasonable inquiries in order to determine whether the person's possession is permitted by that federal law.

 

C.

If reasonable inquiries lead an officer to conclude that the person's possession is lawful under either New Jersey law or 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, as described above in Section II, the officer should promptly allow the person to proceed.

 

D.

Whenever an officer has probable cause to believe that a person's possession of a firearm is in violation of New Jersey law and not permitted by 18 U.S.C.A. 926A, as described above in Section II, then the officer should make an arrest.

 

Hope this helps clarify things...

http://www.nj.gov/njsp/about/fire_trans.html

[Melgamatic 66]

Hm, not sure that helps.

 

In this case, his possession is legal in VA, not in NJ, but he's transferring "control" (but not ownership) of the gun to someone whose possession is not legal in VA but legal in NJ....

 

Which clause did you think would specifically help?

 

Thanks, Melgamatic

[rscalzo 3]

Your problem is the transfer. There are some very interesting court cases in NJ regarding what is a "transfer". One case involved nothing more than handing the handgun to another. Unfortunately is resulted in a death and a friend's life changing radically.

 

I am not a legal expert on the firearm's transfer laws of the state as we don't get into those areas. You could try the NJ State Firearm's Unit but be aware they do not give legal advice. they may give you the specific areas of the NJ statutes that apply as that is their specialty. Be prepared for a wait on the phone as they aren't a large unit and with the cutback even smaller.

 

so does he need to mail it to me?

NO...that is a Federal violation. If you want to really do it safely, find a FFL that will accept an out of state shipment from a non-FFL holder. Pay the NIC fees and transfer cost and have it placed in your name. However his use of the handgun would be dependent on your presence at a range with him.

 

 

NJ State Police Firearm's Unit

609-882-2000, extension 2060 - Ask for the unit.

609-406-9826 (Main FAX number)

 

 

I really don't see the problem being that great a problem.

[Maksim 1,504]

I think it would be safer if he considered your place in jersey his residence.... 8-)

 

but giving it to you is borderline transfer of ownership, which would need pistol permits and all of that stuff.

[Dwarven1 0]

Why is the friend not allowed to possess the handgun in NJ? What if, for example, the friend was coming to NJ to shoot in a match - would that be possible?

 

Or is NJ like MA, where you need a License To Carry to even possess a handgun?

[SpecialK 193]

Your best bet to do this legally is to take advantage of residency requirements. Most states don't even know what they are or how to enforce them. Seeing as he will be storing something at your house charge him rent(a dollar a month) and keep receipts. He is now a resident of NYC and NJ. Have him go to your local police and get his own FID card. I live in Colorado, but will be getting my FID while I am there for the summer living with my girlfriend. He will fulfill being a resident by paying you rent and he will have a FID. Now to get his gun to NJ is the tricky part. When I move to NJ, I own and have possession of my guns and will be able to move there with them (at least that is how I am interpreting the law so far), but you are not moving there from VA. I would suggest having it transferred form one FFL to another FFL and just suck up the cost(it sucks, but welcome to zanny NJ).

 

With all that being said. I am not a lawyer. What I have said is from all the NJ gun laws I have read. None of this insures that you will not be hassled by police that do not know the law or chose to interpret it how they see fit. If anyone disagrees please post a comment. I am looking at becoming an expert at NJ gun law, so if I am wrong then let me know.

[PoorSoulInJersey 1]

why can't he have it in NJ?

 

Is the gun illegal here? or is he prohibited from owning here?

[PoorSoulInJersey 1]

Why is the friend not allowed to possess the handgun in NJ? What if, for example, the friend was coming to NJ to shoot in a match - would that be possible?

 

Or is NJ like MA, where you need a License To Carry to even possess a handgun?

 

You pretty much can't get a license to carry in NJ unless you're the governor.

[rscalzo 3]

Is the gun illegal here? or is he prohibited from owning here?

 

Go back to the original subject. He lives in NYC but wants to store it at a friends house which amounts to a transfer.

take advantage of residency requirements

What you are suggesting is a dual residency which doesn't fly with the ATF. It would still be a transfer of a firearm which would not be legal under the stated conditions.

[BadBul 0]

I think some guys have the wrong info. He lives in NYC, that is why he cannot own a gun legally in New Jersey. He must have a VA address aslo and that is why the gun is still there. He may not be able to own the gun in NYC because they have tighter laws then Jersey.

You cannot borrow the gun from him because the law states that you can borrow a gun for no longer then eight hours with the owner present at all times. So basically you can only borrow the gun if you were to go to the range together. He cannot leave it with you.

Someone said that just give your address as his. I would watch that as he already has two address, and a third would raise a flag.

[SpecialK 193]

take advantage of residency requirements

What you are suggesting is a dual residency which doesn't fly with the ATF. It would still be a transfer of a firearm which would not be legal under the stated conditions.

 

This is why I find gun laws so interesting, because depending on who you ask and where you are you get different answers always. I was wondering if you had the law or a link to where I can find it that the ATF will not recognize dual residency. I do this now with AZ and CO (even pay taxes in both states), but reside mostly in CO. I never could find anything saying I could not leave my guns at whatever residence I saw fit. If you can show me different I may have to have the rest of my guns shipped to me.

[Melgamatic 66]

We had lunch together, and I think we'll end up transferring it to me via two FFL's and one of my pistol purchase permits. That way I can keep it and use it as I wish, and since the only time he'll go to my club in NJ to shoot is with me, we'll be within the usage laws.

 

It's an H&K USP 40cal, so it's a very nice gun which I'll be able to use anytime I want, so giving up one of my current PP's to acquire "ownership" is probably reasonable.

 

-Melgamatic

[rscalzo 3]

H&K USP 40cal

 

Production is slowly being moved to a new facility a few miles from here. Right next to a Mexican restaurant.

[Maksim 1,504]

With so many factories and vendors by you... i think we will soon have to go do a NJGF road trip to rscalzo's neck of the woods.

[rscalzo 3]

Within 20 miles I have SIG (the Academy is almost in my back yard) manufacturing and office, H&K, and Thompson Center which also builds a lot of the S&W stuff such as parts for their M&P15 line. Insight Technologies isn't far either. Ruger is slightly further away but every year they use our club for a shooting sports week long seminar for a local private school. Insight was up testing some new lasers a few weeks back. Bushmaster is about 45 minutes north as is a S&W facility.

 

Sig always comes to our charity match and supplies a handgun to raffle. A good number of our club members are employed in these areas so you get the inside scope on a lot of new stuff. I just placed an order for a Sig P250 in 45ACP. I waited because guys from the academy and production facilities told me to hold off on the early ones. Better yet, they have an area where they store the used firearms returned and rebuilt under the CPO program. Every so often they have a "scratch and dent sale" for employees and I always tell my friends to keep an eye out. If you every take a look at the academy website, you will see George Harris's intro. He's a great guy and can't do enough for us. Really down to earth but a sharp shooter. If you get on his good side he brings out the fun toys like the full auto with the suppressors. And he supplies the ammo!!!!

 

ATF will not recognize dual residency.

It was a ruling made a while back. It was passed on by a friend who is a FFL up here. I'll try and find it. It isn't something that is listed in the regulations. They base their outlook on other areas of the governments residency rulings. It is far from a clack and white issue unfortunately.

 

even pay taxes in both states

So do I but I an not considered a NJ resident any longer. I own more property (as least as far as the value) in NJ but I can't hold a NJ DL or vote there. It almost comes down to a "pick one" from what I've seen. In fact recently a friend up here who owns property in NH registered his cars up here. During the week he lives in MA where he also owns property. MA informed him the use of the NH registration was a violation and it must be corrected. His time in MA was to the extent that they considered his a resident of the state and required certain condition be met. To say he was a NH resident would have created problems in his employment so he changed everything back over.

[SpecialK 193]

yeah every state is different with what makes a person a "resident" I guess I'm not surprised it is stricter out there. Well luckily Colorado will still recognize me as a "resident" for my CCW purposes here as long as I keep land here, even it I have to "pick one" and choose NJ when I move there. :mrgreen: