M14S legal in NJ? My argument (Theres a catch)

[joshroz2 4]

So the M14S as we all know is listed as one of the assault weapons banned by name.

Most people also know that the M1A has been deemed in court to be not substantially identical to the M14S and therefore legal in NJ.

 

Where i start to get confused is the fact that the M14S and the M1A have identical receivers.

 

An AG statement also provided that the colt match target rifle was not substantially identical to the Colt AR-15. However it was stated that differences in the receiver was the deciding factor.

 

Also an AG statement defines what an assault weapon is in this statement:

 

The term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing. The term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences which do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

 

The following are examples of manufacturer changes that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm: name or designation of the firearm; the color of the firearm; the material used to make the barrel or stock of the firearm; the material used to make a pistol grip; a modification of a pistol grip. This is not an exclusive list. \

 

The only reason i can see for putting the M14S on the list would be that in stock form it has at least 2 of the named evil features.

This would also be the reason why the M1A is no longer considered an assault weapon.(it has less than two of the evil features in stock form)

 

Since the AG states the name can't have anything to do with its classification as substantially identical; If the two rifles posses the same parts with no evil features no matter what the name they must be classified the same.

 

However they aren't classified the same as we can clearly see. The only other option I could see would be that an M14S gun without the two evil features might no longer be considered an M14S for the purposes of the list.(which does'nt seem possible)

 

If this isn't the case then I can only come to two conclusions. Either the M14S cannot be considered an assault weapon without the two features and should be taken off the list. OR The M1A should be classified as an assault weapon again.

[joshroz2 4]

After 60 views no one has an opinion?

[Maksim 1,504]

 

Too wordy for the first posts... but welcome to the forum.

 

Personally, there is a difference in NJ, between what is legal, and what is deemed legal, and what is believed to be legal.

 

The AG may have one interpritation, however it is not going to stop any LEO from taking you to court over it anyway. And once it is in court, it is up to the interpretation of the judge.

[joshroz2 4]

I think your right. The bullshit of NJ is that we have so many laws that aren't clearly defined allowing cops free range and forcing you to fight in court to clarify.

 

and I'm sorry about the wordyness but without back story and definitions the answer seems to be an obvious no and I don't feel it is obvious.

 

I'd actually kind of like to take it to court. To me it'd be well worth the money and time.

I'm just worried something touchy like that could backfire. The last thing i want to do is get M1A's re banned which seems to be a real possibility.

 

Should i avoid this argument or do you think I'm justified? Also feel free to poke holes in my theory so i can see the weak spots.

 

If this isn't the forum for this type of thing then let me know and I apologize in advance; But i was under the impression that it was.

[BobZ 0]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to do.

 

The M1A has been legal for years. Springfield armory( and Colt) were able to show legislators that their rifles are legitimate target guns, not "evil assault weapons"

 

If the M1A and M14 are the same get the M1A.

[joshroz2 4]

I'm kind of an m-14 enthusiast and I already have an M1A. I also have tons of Usgi, Chinese(M14S), and Springfield parts. Enough for a few guns. I have other receivers as well. I keep two working guns at a time usually. Lets just hypothetically say I possessed a M14S receiver in my collection(which are some of the best receivers you can buy even though they are Chinese).

 

What I'm trying to do is find the contradictions in the statutes and use them to prove that the only way you can classify the M14S as an assault weapon is if it has two evil feature.(which might not be possible to prove)

 

The reasons I'd want an M14S legal:

1.The receivers are forged (instead of Springfield cast) and legal forged receivers go for up to $1000 each without any parts.

2.M1A's cost and stock Chinese M14S's are usually $500 less minimum

3.These are my rights they are limiting so I'd like to poke as many holes in the laws as i can

4.Because it just should be legal and it really bugs me that two identical things are classified differently mostly because the deciding agency's don't know which way is up

[Teufelhunden 6]

Unfortunately, I think that because it is specifically named by name there is nothing you could do. An M1 Carbine doesn't have evil features but they are illegal because they are named. It is ridiculous, but what NJ gun laws aren't?

[joshroz2 4]

Yeah that is true that the m1 carbine has a stock form with no evil features. But it also has a stock form with two(pistol grip and folding stock). They might have figured since one of the stock forms is an AW they could get away with it.

Does anyone know exactly how the list was chosen and what makes a named AW? <--steak dinner for whoever figures that out exactly

 

I think if prodded The AG would have to give reasons on why those guns are on the list. Reason being that Colt for instance could probably bring about some type civil action if they ban their products without reason.

 

Similar to if NJ banned Coke but not Pepsi because it causes obesity.

 

I also think the reasons would be something along the lines of: They have characteristics of AW's

 

These characteristics are defined by NJ the feds and many other states in similar but slightly different ways

everyone knows the typical list.

[BRaptor 68]

Does anyone know exactly how the list was chosen and what makes a named AW? <--steak dinner for whoever figures that out exactly

 

Arbitrarily and capriciously! Welcome to the PRNJ.

 

Now, where's the beef?!?!?!?!

[joshroz2 4]

Your the winner. :clap:

Except I need the reasons they claim. Not the real reasons.

So no steak dinner sorry.

[KpdPipes 388]

Your the winner. :clap:

Except I need the reasons they claim. Not the real reasons.

So no steak dinner sorry.

 

Expect to want forever...they have NEVER given any reasoning behind how and why they chose "The List"

[Guest]

note - ar15 + colt sporter receivers differ internally - no room for auto sear in sporter -

[ChrisJM981 924]

For what it's worth from Wiki:

 

Assault weapon refers to firearms that had been developed from earlier fully-automatic firearms into semi-automatic civilian-legal versions. Semi-automatic firearms, when fired, automatically extract the spent cartridge casing and load the next cartridge into the chamber, ready to fire again; they do not fire automatically like a machine gun, rather, only 1 round is fired with each trigger pull.

 

By former U.S. law, the legal term assault weapon included certain specific semi-automatic firearm models by name (e.g., Colt AR-15, TEC-9, all non-automatic AK-47s, and Uzis) and other semi-automatic firearms because they possess a minimum set of features from the following list of features:

 

 

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

 

* Folding or telescoping stock

* Pistol grip

* Bayonet mount

* Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one

* Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device which enables the launching or firing of rifle grenades)

 

 

I'm not sure where to look, but they seem to have been banned by name since they had 2 or more features. If NJ's law is meant to be a copy of the federal ban and stated as such it would IMHO (I'm not a lawyer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night) contradict itself in listing firearms that do not contain at least 2 evil features. yea yea I know. I want my fucking M1 Carbine!

[KpdPipes 388]

For what it's worth from Wiki:

 

Assault weapon refers to firearms that had been developed from earlier fully-automatic firearms into semi-automatic civilian-legal versions. Semi-automatic firearms, when fired, automatically extract the spent cartridge casing and load the next cartridge into the chamber, ready to fire again; they do not fire automatically like a machine gun, rather, only 1 round is fired with each trigger pull.

 

By former U.S. law, the legal term assault weapon included certain specific semi-automatic firearm models by name (e.g., Colt AR-15, TEC-9, all non-automatic AK-47s, and Uzis) and other semi-automatic firearms because they possess a minimum set of features from the following list of features:

 

 

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

 

* Folding or telescoping stock

* Pistol grip

* Bayonet mount

* Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one

* Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device which enables the launching or firing of rifle grenades)

 

 

I'm not sure where to look, but they seem to have been banned by name since they had 2 or more features. If NJ's law is meant to be a copy of the federal ban and stated as such it would IMHO (I'm not a lawyer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night) contradict itself in listing firearms that do not contain at least 2 evil features. yea yea I know. I want my friggin M1 Carbine!

 

You have that backwards NJ's State AWB predated the Federal ban by several years.

[ChrisJM981 924]

 

You have that backwards NJ's State AWB predated the Federal ban by several years.

 

:oops: Ladies and gentlemen that's what happens when you don't do your research. Thank you pipes.