Rewrite 2C/Brady

[jonhig 0]

I'm not sure if this has been knocked around previously, I couldn't find it on a search. However, if you had the ability to rewrite the firearms laws/process as they pertain to purchase (long gun or hand gun), what would your law/process include or remove from the existing statute? Why don’t we work within the existing framework of 2C and Brady. The idea would be to afford “legitimate” citizens a workable process and keeping firearms from “bad people”. An intelligent conversation…….

 

Anyone?

[BCeagle 12]

I will not debate anything within the constraints of Brady or the current law, it all needs to be thrown and worked on from scratch. You also cant seperate the "legitimate" and bad people. Once one legit person gets lumped in and is denied their rights due fear of bad people you lost. You also cant say he can appeal it, becuase most people dont have the money.

[Dan 177]

This is easy, start with nirvana.. then see where we end up, hopefully to some amicable median value.

 

edit: not withing 2C or Brady i know.. ;p

 

• 2A Carry w/o permit for non-prohibited persons
• Remove the failure known as the AWB, magazine limits (who defines high capacity anyway??), any other restrictions on the cosmetics or trivial features (weight, length, grips, etc).
• Remove the concept of FID cards and Pistol Permits. Only serves the purpose to hassle would-be and legal gun owners.
• Only procedure needed for purchase is the existing NICS background check. Afterall the FID and Pistol Permit process is the same thing minus fingerprints.
• Keep, strengthen, and enforce laws and punishment around using a firearm during the commission of a crime, or possession by prohibited persons (violent felons, criminals, etc)

[jonhig 0]

This is easy, start with nirvana.. then see where we end up, hopefully to some amicable median value.

 

edit: not withing 2C or Brady i know.. ;p

 

• 2A Carry w/o permit for non-prohibited persons
• Remove the failure known as the AWB, magazine limits (who defines high capacity anyway??), any other restrictions on the cosmetics or trivial features (weight, length, grips, etc).
• Remove the concept of FID cards and Pistol Permits. Only serves the purpose to hassle would-be and legal gun owners.
• Only procedure needed for purchase is the existing NICS background check. Afterall the FID and Pistol Permit process is the same thing minus fingerprints.
• Keep, strengthen, and enforce laws and punishment around using a firearm during the commission of a crime, or possession by prohibited persons (violent felons, criminals, etc)

 

In keeping with the theme of purchasing and not the carry or cosmetics issue...

doing away with the state process and only going with NICS? 2 issues that I could see, just playing devils advocate now, because I agree with your concept.

What happens when I get arrested and say my name is Dan and I use your information cause I know it (I'm a coworker, or relative or what have you). I get fingerprinted and a criminal record is made in your name but with my prints. Now you head over to your favorite FFL and they run a name based NICS check. Your either pending or flat denied. Now you have an identity issue that has to be sorted out with NICS and some states criminal history dept.

The second issue would be secondary sales...I sell you my 38 or I buy your shotgun...what is the answer to that issue?

[jonhig 0]

I will not debate anything within the constraints of Brady or the current law, it all needs to be thrown and worked on from scratch. You also cant seperate the "legitimate" and bad people. Once one legit person gets lumped in and is denied their rights due fear of bad people you lost. You also cant say he can appeal it, becuase most people dont have the money.

 

Certainly you can define legitimate vs bad...just define it. Felons-bad, mental commitments-bad, etc.

[raz-0 1,259]

In keeping with the theme of purchasing and not the carry or cosmetics issue...

doing away with the state process and only going with NICS? 2 issues that I could see, just playing devils advocate now, because I agree with your concept.

What happens when I get arrested and say my name is Dan and I use your information cause I know it (I'm a coworker, or relative or what have you). I get fingerprinted and a criminal record is made in your name but with my prints. Now you head over to your favorite FFL and they run a name based NICS check. Your either pending or flat denied. Now you have an identity issue that has to be sorted out with NICS and some states criminal history dept.

The second issue would be secondary sales...I sell you my 38 or I buy your shotgun...what is the answer to that issue?

 

How does the state based layer prevent that? Knowing people in NJ who have had to deal with that crap, I can tell you it doesn't.

[PDM 91]

Let's try to break this down.

 

If we agree that people 1) convicted of a violent felony (note that I stress violent -- there is legitimate debate whether a conviction for a non-violent felony should strip you of a constitutional right) or 2)that have a demonstrable mental illness (ie, have been voluntarily or involuntarily committed to a mental hospital or other institution) should not be allowed to purchase or possess a firearm, then we at least have an objective starting point. Let's call this Goal #1 If you don't agree with Goal #1 then there is nothing to talk about. If you do agree, and I'm guessing that the vast majority of gun owners do agree, then the entire conversation revolves around implementation; establishing rules, laws and and procedures so that Goal #1 can be accomplished to as much as possible (recognizing that no system is perfect) WITHOUT infringing on the rights of people that don't fall within either category (let's call this Goal #2). It's as simple as that.

 

In my view, given the current state of technology, it should not be that hard to implement procedures that largely achieve Goal #1 AND Goal #2. However, we unfortunately run into two problems.

 

--First Problem: virtually all of the procedures proposed to ostensibly accomplish Goal #1 (eg Brady checks, FID cards, permits)are proposed by people and organizations (like the Brady Bunch, Chuckie Schumer, Crypt Keeper Lautenberg, etc) who really don't want to accomplish Goal #1, but rather want to completely inhibit and prevent the realization of Goal #2 (in other words, what they really want is to make it as hard as possible, or impossible, for anyone to own guns, at least other than -- perhaps -- very limited ownership of limited types of guns for hunting and/or target shooting). To make it worse, these people and organizations are outright liars. They claim to respect the Second Amendment and the right of the law abiding to own firearms, but then do everything in their power to subvert that right. Have Brady et al EVER seen a law restricting gun ownership that they didn't like?

 

--Second Problem: People like us aren't fooled and, while in theory we agree that Goal #1 should be accomplished, we can't work with Brady, Schumer, Bloomberg, etc. because they are liars we know what they really want to accomplish.

 

So, what should we do? In my view, we need to stop being afraid. We don't always have to be the "ministry of no." If a proposal comes along that might actually accomplish Goal #1, we should consider it, address it, and try to make it as workable as possible up to the point that it impedes Goal #2. Specifically, I believe background checks are a good idea IF they can be done quickly (ie in a matter of hours at most). Sharing of information among State and Federal authorities regarding mentally ill people who should not own guns is a good thing. Heck, I think a DUI should disqualify a person from owning a gun for a certain probationary period. If you are reckless and stupid enough to drive drunk, you should loose your right to own a gun. I also think a permit to carry is a good idea, if it requires only objective criteria. That's about it. No FID cards, registries, "assault weapons" bans, mag limitations, etc.

[jonhig 0]

Your state process is fingerprint based which equals positive identification. Your NICS check, at least through the state criminal history system is via the FID number which is the unique number assigned to your fingerprint check initiated by the locals when you first got your FID or P2P. The federal checks are only run by your demographic info thats transmitted to the FBI. Most people denied/delayed in NJ are due to name based criminal history hit from out of state.

[jonhig 0]

PDM

I'm in agreement on all of your points. NJ basically has an almost redundant system with 2C and then NICS. My thought is with NICS and the positive ID aspect of the NJ fingerprinting (for positive identification, nothing else) would be a workable alternative to the present system. Go to the locals or at this point MorphoTrac and get fingerprinted. Obtain an ID card (good for life) from your local PD. The MorphoTrac returns the criminal history results in a matter of hours. Pick up your card at the PD (well under 30 days cause their responsibility is over). Go to your FFL and have a NICS check. Instant response (or within the 3 days). Case closed. ??

[Bob B 103]

Start with an understanding of each Statute:

2C:39-1 Definitions. Most notable are the definitions of Assault Firearms, paragraph w, and large capacity magazines w(4) and y.

2C:39-2 Presumptions (not too much going on here)

2C:39-3 Prohibited weapons and devices. Most notable is HP ammo, paragraph f.

2C:39-4 Possession of weapons for unlawful purposes. Short version, firearm + intent to commit a crime = 2nd degree crime

2C:39-5 Unlawful possession of weapons. Short version - no permit means, must be within an exemption. FID allows possession of unloaded rifles and shotguns outside of the exemptions, Permit to Carry a Handgun allows possession of a handgun outside of the exemptions. No one can have a machine gun.

2C:39-6 Exemptions - at home, at the range, transport to and from and while moving in closed, fastened case, gun box, tied package or locked in the trunk.

2C:39-7 Certain persons not to have weapons. Short version - felon or other violent crime or mental illness + gun = 2nd degree crime.

Beyond this point deals with manufacture and retailers and some miscellaneous stuff.

 

2C:58-3 Purchase of firearms. Short version, FID and PPP.

2C:58-3.1 and 3.2 Temporary transfer of firearms

2C:58-3.3 "Handgun Ammunition" defined; sale, purchase, etc., regulated; violation, fourth degree crime.

2C:58-3.4 Exemption to OGAM

2C:58-4 Permits to carry handguns

 

The thing to understand is that you can delete 2C:39-1 w and y and delete "dum dum" and "hollow nose" out of 2C:39-3f and delete all of 2C:39-5. Then add "ammunition" and "magazines" to 2C:39-4 and 2C:39-7 and you would have a legal framework that makes it illegal for anyone with criminal intent or criminal (or mental) history to possess guns, ammo, or magazines and allows everyone else, i.e. the good guys, to possess any firearm without a permit. Add to that NICS at the point of purchase for any gun, ammo or magazines (sorry about the ammo and magazines, but that's so we can eliminate mag restrictions and get rid of the log book for recording ammo sales and put to rest the whole HP issue) and you have a pretty good system.

 

Now, walk your way over to 2C:58.

Delete 2C:58-3 because it is already illegal for those with criminal intent or criminal or mental history to possess any firearm, ammo or magazine.

Change 2C:58-3.1 and 3.2 to read, "it is a third degree crime to transfer a firearm, ammo or magazine to anyone you know to be disqualified from possessing a firearm under 2C:39-7."

Change 2C:58-3.3 to just be an age check.

Delete 2C:58-3.4 because we already deleted 2C:58-3 so there is no more OGAM.

Delete 2C:58-4 because 2C:39-5 is already deleted so you can carry if you are not disqualified under 2C:39-4 or 2C:39-7.

 

Result, good guys can purchase and possess any guns, ammo or magazines with no permit, bad guys cannot purchase any gun, ammo or magazines from a retailer and cannot possess any gun, ammo or magazine whatsoever or he goes to jail for 5yrs minimum.

 

Add civil and criminal immunity for self-defense inside and outside of the home with no duty to retreat, ever and criminals would be an endangered species in NJ. Wouldn't that be something.

 

And that's all she wrote.

[Dan 177]

In keeping with the theme of purchasing and not the carry or cosmetics issue...

doing away with the state process and only going with NICS? 2 issues that I could see, just playing devils advocate now, because I agree with your concept.

What happens when I get arrested and say my name is Dan and I use your information cause I know it (I'm a coworker, or relative or what have you). I get fingerprinted and a criminal record is made in your name but with my prints. Now you head over to your favorite FFL and they run a name based NICS check. Your either pending or flat denied. Now you have an identity issue that has to be sorted out with NICS and some states criminal history dept.

The second issue would be secondary sales...I sell you my 38 or I buy your shotgun...what is the answer to that issue?

 

First issue, deal with it just like any other form of Identity theft. This can happen to anyone now.

 

Second issue, set up a system so private citizens can get a "nics" check easily over the phone using the buyer's driver's license. Something like a yes/no and confirmation number. I could live with this as I wouldn't want to be selling a gun to a bad guy.

[Dan 177]

PDM

I'm in agreement on all of your points. NJ basically has an almost redundant system with 2C and then NICS. My thought is with NICS and the positive ID aspect of the NJ fingerprinting (for positive identification, nothing else) would be a workable alternative to the present system. Go to the locals or at this point MorphoTrac and get fingerprinted. Obtain an ID card (good for life) from your local PD. The MorphoTrac returns the criminal history results in a matter of hours. Pick up your card at the PD (well under 30 days cause their responsibility is over). Go to your FFL and have a NICS check. Instant response (or within the 3 days). Case closed. ??

 

How is this different from what we have today (besides involving this MorphoTrac company)? Are you suggesting FFL's have fingerprint scanners?

[mipafox 438]

Remove all laws and regulations about possession, purchase, carrying, or transportation of all firearms, ammo, and accessories.

[jonhig 0]

First issue, deal with it just like any other form of Identity theft. This can happen to anyone now.

 

Second issue, set up a system so private citizens can get a "nics" check easily over the phone using the buyer's driver's license. Something like a yes/no and confirmation number. I could live with this as I wouldn't want to be selling a gun to a bad guy.

 

So you'd be okay with an identity issue fire arms denial to eliminate a one time fingerprint process at the onset of your gun buying career? Just asking.

 

NICS would have to be amended as it now only deals with licensed persons (FFLs) to unlicensed persons (you and me).

[jonhig 0]

How is this different from what we have today (besides involving this MorphoTrac company)? Are you suggesting FFL's have fingerprint scanners?

 

I would suggest that the process involving the local pds be eliminated. No mental health, no friends check, etc. They'd only be responsible for issuing you a card once your fingerprint check came back from the SBI/FBI. No involvement with the locals ever again. One card, NICS check per purchase of whatever (long gun hand gun)

 

Good stuff..thanks for the ideas.

 

Gotta pick my daughter up from school lol...I'll be back.

[yjon35mtrs 0]

Remove all laws and regulations about possession, purchase, carrying, or transportation of all firearms, ammo, and accessories.

X2

[Dan 177]

I would suggest that the process involving the local pds be eliminated. No mental health, no friends check, etc. They'd only be responsible for issuing you a card once your fingerprint check came back from the SBI/FBI. No involvement with the locals ever again. One card, NICS check per purchase of whatever (long gun hand gun)

 

Good stuff..thanks for the ideas.

 

Gotta pick my daughter up from school lol...I'll be back.

 

I don't know about a "card" per say. I'm all for stuff that prevents prohibited persons from getting firearms, but I am not OK with anything to do with a registration, ID, or other type of thing that I would need to exercise my 2A rights.

 

Edit :using existing driver's license should be more than enough. BTW, good example of something that was NOT supposed to be a universal ID , but turned out that way. So since we are stuck with it, may as well use it. States are very strict nowadays at giving out DL's so it should be more than enough.

[jonhig 0]

I don't know about a "card" per say. I'm all for stuff that prevents prohibited persons from getting firearms, but I am not OK with anything to do with a registration, ID, or other type of thing that I would need to exercise my 2A rights.

 

Edit :using existing driver's license should be more than enough. BTW, good example of something that was NOT supposed to be a universal ID , but turned out that way. So since we are stuck with it, may as well use it. States are very strict nowadays at giving out DL's so it should be more than enough.

 

So you would accept a drivers license as a universal ID. Would you feel comfortable as that being the document to ensure our children are in the hands of appropriate people in schools or in a day care facilities or our ports or airports are manned with appropriate personnel? For that matter that cops and firefighters and EMS personnel are appropriate?

[jonhig 0]

Start with an understanding of each Statute:

2C:39-1 Definitions. Most notable are the definitions of Assault Firearms, paragraph w, and large capacity magazines w(4) and y.

2C:39-2 Presumptions (not too much going on here)

2C:39-3 Prohibited weapons and devices. Most notable is HP ammo, paragraph f.

2C:39-4 Possession of weapons for unlawful purposes. Short version, firearm + intent to commit a crime = 2nd degree crime

2C:39-5 Unlawful possession of weapons. Short version - no permit means, must be within an exemption. FID allows possession of unloaded rifles and shotguns outside of the exemptions, Permit to Carry a Handgun allows possession of a handgun outside of the exemptions. No one can have a machine gun.

2C:39-6 Exemptions - at home, at the range, transport to and from and while moving in closed, fastened case, gun box, tied package or locked in the trunk.

2C:39-7 Certain persons not to have weapons. Short version - felon or other violent crime or mental illness + gun = 2nd degree crime.

Beyond this point deals with manufacture and retailers and some miscellaneous stuff.

 

2C:58-3 Purchase of firearms. Short version, FID and PPP.

2C:58-3.1 and 3.2 Temporary transfer of firearms

2C:58-3.3 "Handgun Ammunition" defined; sale, purchase, etc., regulated; violation, fourth degree crime.

2C:58-3.4 Exemption to OGAM

2C:58-4 Permits to carry handguns

 

The thing to understand is that you can delete 2C:39-1 w and y and delete "dum dum" and "hollow nose" out of 2C:39-3f and delete all of 2C:39-5. Then add "ammunition" and "magazines" to 2C:39-4 and 2C:39-7 and you would have a legal framework that makes it illegal for anyone with criminal intent or criminal (or mental) history to possess guns, ammo, or magazines and allows everyone else, i.e. the good guys, to possess any firearm without a permit. Add to that NICS at the point of purchase for any gun, ammo or magazines (sorry about the ammo and magazines, but that's so we can eliminate mag restrictions and get rid of the log book for recording ammo sales and put to rest the whole HP issue) and you have a pretty good system.

 

Now, walk your way over to 2C:58.

Delete 2C:58-3 because it is already illegal for those with criminal intent or criminal or mental history to possess any firearm, ammo or magazine.

Change 2C:58-3.1 and 3.2 to read, "it is a third degree crime to transfer a firearm, ammo or magazine to anyone you know to be disqualified from possessing a firearm under 2C:39-7."

Change 2C:58-3.3 to just be an age check.

Delete 2C:58-3.4 because we already deleted 2C:58-3 so there is no more OGAM.

Delete 2C:58-4 because 2C:39-5 is already deleted so you can carry if you are not disqualified under 2C:39-4 or 2C:39-7.

 

Result, good guys can purchase and possess any guns, ammo or magazines with no permit, bad guys cannot purchase any gun, ammo or magazines from a retailer and cannot possess any gun, ammo or magazine whatsoever or he goes to jail for 5yrs minimum.

 

Add civil and criminal immunity for self-defense inside and outside of the home with no duty to retreat, ever and criminals would be an endangered species in NJ. Wouldn't that be something.

 

And that's all she wrote.

 

Rob I agree. Who and how would you want that implemented?

[jonhig 0]

Remove all laws and regulations about possession, purchase, carrying, or transportation of all firearms, ammo, and accessories.

 

An armed society is a polite society? Imagine that on your Turnpike commute...lol

[mipafox 438]

An armed society is a polite society? Imagine that on your Turnpike commute...lol

 

Imagine what? If the idea of people carrying guns scares you, then you better not leave NJ.

[jonhig 0]

Remove all laws and regulations about possession, purchase, carrying, or transportation of all firearms, ammo, and accessories.

 

Given the concept you proclaim...yeah.

[Malsua 1,422]

Given the concept you proclaim...yeah.

 

Because what? You think that a prohibited person cannot get a gun? You think that if you allowed anyone to buy a gun at a gun store that it would make any difference at all in crime?

 

Where I grew up, every vehicle had a gun in it. You knew bad guys had guns so you avoid them, it's that simple. The difference in NJ is ONLY the bad guys have guns.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Given the concept you proclaim...yeah.

 

What part of 2A don't you agree with?? just wondering??

 

Harry

[jonhig 0]

What part of 2A don't you agree with?? just wondering??

 

Harry

 

I absolutely agree with the second amendment. My simple question was, if you could change the law or process, what would your changes be. It was suggested that we do away with all laws pertaining to possession, purchase, carrying, or transportation of all firearms, ammo, and accessories. So I'd imagine that mean everyone get a firearm.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I absolutely agree with the second amendment. My simple question was, if you could change the law or process, what would your changes be. It was suggested that we do away with all laws pertaining to possession, purchase, carrying, or transportation of all firearms, ammo, and accessories. So I'd imagine that mean everyone get a firearm.

 

I'd go with what many of the other states are doing, NICS checks when you want to purchase and do away with all this other useless garbage. The only thing I ever see in Laws about weapons it is protects the criminals, make for a easier day to the office so to speak, as has been proven in every single with out exception for each and every society that has taken away the rights to posses firearms.

 

The problem with the laws in the regard is it's only for law abiding and responsible gun owners, people who should have them will and they don't care what the law says, Myself I'd rather be a more level playing field and be able to defend myself and family if the need ever arises.

 

Harry

[jonhig 0]

I'd go with what many of the other states are doing, NICS checks when you want to purchase and do away with all this other useless garbage. The only thing I ever see in Laws about weapons it is protects the criminals, make for a easier day to the office so to speak, as has been proven in every single with out exception for each and every society that has taken away the rights to posses firearms.

 

The problem with the laws in the regard is it's only for law abiding and responsible gun owners, people who should have them will and they don't care what the law says, Myself I'd rather be a more level playing field and be able to defend myself and family if the need ever arises.

 

Harry

Harry I agree with you. The only caveat I ever added was the fingerprint for positive ID as it applied to a criminal history check portion of NICS. I certainly don't want to be painted as anti 2A. I own firearms, I've taught my family how to use them and the responsibility that goes with it. Both of my children were taught to respect firearms at an early age because I had guns in my home. I agree the present system s*cks, I don't like waiting for a permit anymore than anyone else. My issue is what differentiates a law abiding citizen from a non-law abiding citizen.

John

[Bob B 103]

Rob I agree. Who and how would you want that implemented?

 

 

"And that, Detective, is the right question. Program terminated."

[jonhig 0]

"And that, Detective, is the right question. Program terminated."

 

Just NICS by the Feds.

[mipafox 438]

That is indeed what I meant. Everybody that wants a gun should be able to have one. I'd rather that you didn't get to decide who does or does not have the right to defend themselves and what lengths they need to go to in order to justify it. Except for people in your care such as your children.

 

We have a difference of opinion. That is fine. Just understand that your desire for reasonable gun controls is the reason your wish list is nothing more than that. I have no problem with it, I only ask that you keep it in New Jersey where it belongs.